Reel Talk & Banter
Ever wanted to just sit around and make fun of an old movie with your friends? That's exactly what Reel Talk & Banter is all about. Join best friends Omari Williams and Jay Richardson as they rewatch movies that came out at least a decade ago. It's a mix of a film review and a comedy roast, where they discuss everything from the plot to the terrible acting, and even if the film has stood the test of time. Get ready to laugh and hear some hot takes on your favorite (and least favorite) classic films.
Reel Talk & Banter
When Morality Meets The Supernatural, Who Decides The Rules
A single touch can pass a demon like a secret. That’s the chilling conceit at the heart of Fallen, the 1998 Denzel Washington thriller we rewatch and unpack with fresh eyes. We trace how a simple body-hop mechanic turns a crowded city into a minefield, how a Rolling Stones hook becomes a horror motif, and why a restrained supernatural approach can be scarier than jump scares. Along the way, we test the film’s logic and admit where it bends: Azazel’s rules shift, the detective plot strains, and exposition piles up. But when the tension tightens—especially in that cabin finale—the craft and performances sing.
We spend real time with Hobbes at home, because the film does too. Denzel’s quiet care for his brother Art and nephew adds soul you rarely see in 90s genre films, especially with a Black lead who isn’t reduced to the “tortured loner” trope. That warmth sharpens the knife when evil stalks his circle, and it fuels a bigger debate we keep returning to: integrity in a compromised system. From the “little cream” speech to the public execution sequence, Fallen prods questions about justice, punishment, and whether 99% good can withstand 1% corruption. The movie flirts with biblical stakes—Revelation clues, apocalypse letters—while delivering the vibes that made it a cult favorite.
Expect praise where it’s earned: Elias Koteas’s opening creep, John Goodman’s late-game menace, Denzel’s magnetic control, and the needle drop that turned a classic into a shiver. Expect critique where it’s due: uneven rules, contrived policing beats, and lore that reaches further than it grasps. If you’ve written Fallen off as “that lesser Denzel thriller,” this conversation might change your mind—or at least sharpen what you love and what you don’t. Hit play, then tell us: is Fallen underrated, and what would you fix? If you enjoy the show, follow, share with a friend, and drop a rating to help others find us.
Follow us on the following social media platforms or email us at reeltalkbanter@gmail.com!
Hello and welcome to the Real Talk and Banter Podcast. I'm Amari.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm Jay Richardson.
SPEAKER_00:And today we're going to talk about the 1998 Denzel film Fallen. So this one was your selection. So I'm going to let you take it away and direct how you want us to approach this one.
SPEAKER_02:So today, folks, we're going to be diving into a movie that really I I didn't expect it to be as creepy as it was. It it definitely Yeah. From the beginning to the end, it really kinda dove into that creepy tension, which was a little bit um I think more a little bit different than what we typically see Denzel in, even if this is one of his earliest movies. So uh this is the 1998 Supernatural Thriller starring Denzel Washington, John Goodman, um, Donald Sutherland, and one of I think the pettiest demons in cinematic history. This demon just had way too much time on his hands.
SPEAKER_00:I don't understand why. You know Elias Cortez, who's playing the demon?
SPEAKER_02:No, I don't. You mean the you mean Reese?
SPEAKER_00:Reese, yeah, Reese, yeah. He's from uh Chicago PD the first few seasons. That's where I know him from. Yeah. You would not recognize him because he's an older man in Chicago PD, but yeah, that's where I knew the name from. That's where I know him from. Nice.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Alright, so we got Denzel playing Detective John Hobes. Uh thinking he's kind of wrapped up a serial killer case by what we call Reese. Only to realize that Reese was not just a man, but he was a demon or possessed by a demon named Azazel, who switched bodies by so a little bit different than some of the other demon-type movies, possession type movies where you have like theatrics and spinning heads and throwing up green spit stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Um that that uh like backwards like crawl thing, that crab crawl thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that is like that is like everybody's can't handle that. Like, I don't understand that.
SPEAKER_00:I don't I definitely don't do horror movies as much as when I was younger, but um I stopped doing those exorcism possession type movies a long time ago. I think I've only seen one of those exorcist movies, and I was like, nope, I'm good. Not for me.
SPEAKER_02:I swear every year they come out with another one, but uh I watched it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The Conjurant has like amazing.
SPEAKER_02:Alright, so yeah, so we don't have those theatrics, we just have a casual touch on the shoulder, a bump on the street, a handshake, and all of a sudden we got a new host. So that kind of makes the movie a little bit different, um, and it turns every random person into a threat. Um I thought about while I was watching this movie, and I don't know if you noticed this, and this movie was set in uh I believe Philadelphia. So um, wait, before I go into that, let me let me go into some fun facts here. Let's go into some fun facts real quick. Okay. So uh this this question is for you.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Alright. So this movie opened in 1998. What other uh scary movie slash thriller also opened in 1998?
SPEAKER_00:Oh boy. That is I'm gonna need a hint.
SPEAKER_02:Ooh. If I give the hint, you're gonna know.
SPEAKER_00:That is too broad. Oh, really? Um it's like a super popular movie.
SPEAKER_02:Uh it's very popular, yes. Um, let's see. I don't know what hint I could give that wouldn't just give it a horror. It's a horror. It is a horror. 1998, uh the height of a certain actor's uh Is it is it a slasher film? No, no slasher, no slasher. Not slasher, it involves a kid and it involves a kid.
SPEAKER_00:A kid. 1998, a kid. Um so it's uh it's like a possession type movie, or like uh there's like demons in it? No. Or supernatural. Supernatural, yeah, yeah. Nothing supernatural. No, it's supernatural. Is it the no? No, the ring was later.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the ring is a little late. I think the literal is like early 2000s, 2001 or 2003, something like that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh no, I'm stumped in this one.
SPEAKER_02:That's okay. I didn't give you a lot of hints. I just expect you to know because you know.
SPEAKER_00:You don't, you give me nothing.
SPEAKER_02:Like, hey, what's that movie that happened at one point in 1998? You're like, what? Just pick a point in time. I'm like, what? I don't know. No, that's my fault. Anyway, Sixth Sense. This opens in the same year as Sixth Cents. Yes, yes. Another movie with a nice twist at the end. Maybe we'll cover that one day. But uh, yeah, this movie Okay. Uh, because of that, you know, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:No, never mind. I don't wanna. You almost triggered me into uh M Knight Shamelan rant, but we'll save that for another podcast. Yeah, but please, please proceed.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so I was just gonna comment that this movie didn't do as well. It was kind of buried under a few of the other big movies, namely Sixth Sense. It also had the faculty and the beloved, also some supernatural movies that came out like in the late 90s. Uh so uh it was up against a lot of big hitters, so didn't do as well, but over time it did become a cult uh classic that you know, especially people like the twists at the end. So um, yeah. I say the the ending is is worth the movie for sure. I mean the entire movie was really good, but you know. Um what else do we have? Oh, we don't agree.
SPEAKER_00:No, we'll I don't disagree. We'll get into it.
SPEAKER_02:We'll get into it. I like it. I like when we banter it. We'll get into it. That's what we do. Real talking banter. All right. We also had the classic Rolling Stone song Time is on my side, which was sang whistling.
SPEAKER_00:Incredible, incredible needle drop. Incredible needle drop. Like I marked that. I was like, that was perfect. Perfect, perfect, perfect.
SPEAKER_02:It was sang, it was whistled, it was hummed all throughout the movie from beginning to end, and it did its job. Um, obviously it wasn't intended to be that sinister, but the way it was written and used, you definitely it was creepy every time you heard it. You're like, what the heck? Um it the notes here says that the director actually chose that song because they uh felt that it was a song that people would always want to sing and they can't help but sing along to. So even though you know it's creepy, you're still like, I've got time is on my side. Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_00:I guess it does have that it has that haunting vibe, but it's actually it's so good though. You know, it it does stick with you. Um the Rolling Stones really, yeah, not tell the park with that one.
SPEAKER_02:And the last uh fun fact I have is this concept of demon transferring by touch then just came out of nowhere. It's actually inspired by old Jewish folklore uh about spirits, souls that cling to the living. Uh, not usually uh one-to-one match, but the influence is still definitely there. So um it came from something there. There's there's always somewhere. I'm shit. There's probably like African folklore that says the same thing, Jewish, yeah. Everybody's got it. Everyone's got the same dang demon or story. It's just told from their perspective. So all right. Yeah. So um, yeah, let's get into it. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so those those are all great points, uh, great facts that you got there for us. Um the movie, so I have seen this movie before. Okay, but I was probably it was probably like 10 years after it came out or something. I I think I may have been in college or late high school uh when I was watching it. I remember enjoying it. I do remember in my mind, it's one of those Denzel movies that not a lot of people talk about, so I don't really know like culturally, you know, how everyone feels about it. In my research like you, I did see that it has gained more of a cult following past its you know release time. But I I had a good time with the movie. I do, I know, and I know you said we're gonna talk about the ending. I do have I do have some comments, I do have some knits to pick. And I'm not sure if the movie because I know you talked about how it didn't like lean too heavily into supernatural stuff, which I think was kind of a double-edged sword for the movie. And I was just kind of working my way through like what did I actually want out of this, you know? But hopefully, I think we'll be able to get to figure that out as we discuss. Uh, because I knew you wanted to go through some things thematically, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, for sure. I also saw this movie when I was a kid, I don't I don't know about 1998, but somewhere around there. I was kind of young because my mom was a big Denzel Washington fan, which most black women were, so um so yeah, I did watch it then, but obviously I did not watch it the way I'm watching it now as an adult, where now I'm more knowledgeable of themes and movies, critical mind. Yeah, more definitely more of a critical mind. So I think much like your love of Fern Gully Hey, easy, careful now.
SPEAKER_00:No Ferngully slander.
SPEAKER_02:I think the nostalgia of it definitely leans to help me like, oh, it's still a good movie. And and like you said, it's not bad, but it also isn't like you know the best Denzel movie ever either. It's you know, um so so we we started at the beginning. Um they start with the creepy off rip. Um, one of the things I saw here that made me question some stuff, and I always go back and forth with this just in regular life, is how I feel about capital punishment, which is like, mmm, mmm mm-mm. I know that that's not like normally what we talk about, but I figured, you know, why not? So for me, I am I am generally for it. Generally for it, which is you know I lied. I'm just kidding. I'm not for it at all. I lied, I admit it. I know, I know, I know. I was still trying to decide in my head where I'm gonna stick with this, and now this is gonna be my entire personality.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, but it's okay.
SPEAKER_02:I nah nah nah, this is it. Gotta stick with this forever. No, but generally I'm against it. You know, I'm I'm all I'm all about the you know, the eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. So, I mean, yeah, it's expensive to have to house a person forever, rest of their lives, they're medical and all that stuff. And I understand that. And I also have not been faced with, you know, my a family member or a friend of mine being like murdered and you know, dismantled and whatever else they've done crazily, and you know, having to know that that person is alive and my person isn't. So, you know, maybe this is coming from an ignorant standpoint, but yeah, um yeah, I don't think we have the right to take a life like that. Like if they're in the act of it, then maybe then yeah, sure, you have to protect yourself.
SPEAKER_00:But if you're trying to protect someone or yourself, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you're trying to protect yourself and someone, that's a different story. But I mean, if it's already done, then you know, then they just have to live the rest of their life in prison, and it is what it is, I guess. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think similarly, um, I I'm with you. The whole I've and I've had to think about this because I I've taken some classes that like kind of force us to like actually make this decision at like 20 years old. What the fuck? I don't know. But the the whole pr and I know I know you're not trying to make us a conversation about the whole prison system thing, right? But I just have problems with the whole thing, and let me not say I have problems that I'm some like fucking you know social justice warrior. I am not. I we think we are not I'm like, oh that sucks, and then I move on. I'm gonna move the hell on, and that is it. Like, I I'm not I'm not your champion, guys. I'm really not.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I'm like, oh man, that's horrible.
SPEAKER_00:Move the hell on. Can you believe Can you believe they're doing this? Oh like ah, crazy. You know, yeah, it's anyway. Yeah, so it the whole like the prison system, like it's not really there to rehabilitate anyone, although they they'll sometimes they'll try and convince you that's what it's there for. It's not. Um, I know many, and for me with this movie, when I saw Okay, they were executing him, I was like, alright, cool. Because I have notes here saying, first of all, public executions are so fucking weird.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't I don't agree with black art. I've never understood why everybody's an audience of people, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Can it not just be the warden and the people administrating whatever?
SPEAKER_02:And a doctor to make sure it's done well.
SPEAKER_00:A doctor, of course, to make sure it's done well. I guess maybe well, I guess maybe what would you have in the the victims, the family of the victims? That is that who we're supposed to assume is in the room.
SPEAKER_02:I assume so, but there was obvious I mean, this person, obviously, Reese was kind of like a you know, infamous serial killer at this point, or the the demon was so uh it looked like there was uh several reporters and the damn half the police force was apparently in there for some reason. So are we getting off in this? I just that's what it that's what it feels like. If it feels like a sadistic like show, and I'm like, why?
SPEAKER_00:Why is that a why is it a whole spectacle? It does not need to be a spectacle, you know. And then that in turn is desensitizing us to say, all right, we're just killing another. No, but you're this is a horrible human being who's done horrible things, yes, but we are also taking that person's life, you know. So anything that we as human beings do that desensitizes our value in the human life, I have a problem with, you know, is I guess going to answer your question. And if it's like, okay, we're gonna have to execute this person because it's just impractical to have them uh you know supporting him, keeping him alive, and all that stuff from a financial and economic standpoint. Okay, I can wrap my mind around that, you know. Uh it still sucks, but I can wrap my mind around it. But then when you're saying, hey, get your tickets, everybody come on down and see the like, nah, man, that's crazy. And then I I was so con I'm like, what year is this movie in? Because gas chamber. We're doing gas chambers in the 90s.
SPEAKER_02:What? That was wild. But I think, and I don't know, yeah, this is the 90s, and I think that maybe still back then you could choose, you still could choose whatever you wanted to to die by. A lot of and I we I have to do research and and look at it, but you you used you used to have the right to choose how you wanted to die, and most people would do lethal, but some really sick people will be like, I want to die uh by um firing range or gas chamber, which is obviously much more inhumane than lethal injection where they you know halfway put you to sleep and then you know you just don't wake back up. But I think you could choose that. So I mean, most people just don't.
SPEAKER_00:Quick uh quick Google search here is telling me that the last person executed in a traditional gas chamber using hydrogen cyanide was a guy named Walter Legrand in Arizona in 1999.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, okay, we're still gas shaming people in the 90s, got it. Yeah, you can do it.
SPEAKER_02:You could choose it if you want. That's your choice how you want to die. That's tough. That is tough. I mean, I don't know. Hydrogen cyanide is wild. Like, first of all, I'd be so concerned about that leaking out and then just taking out the whole room, but okay. Yeah, anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a different story, but yeah, no, I totally I you you you hit it nail on the head. I think you did a very good job just wording that of yeah, I I agree. You know, a person has done a horrible thing, totally, they deserve to be punished, totally. Do we deserve to take their life? Uh, and then if we do, for economical stats, you know, we don't we don't want like you said, we don't want to be responsible for the person for the rest of their life. They might live to be 120. Like, oh shit, we still paying for this guy? Like, damn. Yeah, fine, okay, but why is there a ticket for it? Why can I go eat my popcorn and watch this person take their last breath? Like, that doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00:It's weird. Don't like it.
SPEAKER_02:It is very weird. I don't, I would never part even if I was an affected family member, I would never participate in that. Like, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't go. Like, I want to know, of course, like, hey, did it happen? It was successful, like, yeah, he's gone.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:You saw when um when Hobbes, uh Denzel Captain Hobbs, when he got back to the police station, and it was like, how'd it go? And it was like, he died. And it's like, yeah, that's what's gonna happen. You know, they they they it was a little tongue in cheek thing where it's like it made it sound like that officer didn't go because the guy's gonna die. That's the whole point of it. Like, why am I here watching this thing? At least that's how I read that that extra page. Um yeah, it's there was be there would be no reason for me to go and attend that at all. At all. Yeah, and then apparently, what if he was possessed by some demon that could leave his soul and inhabit my body? Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Look at me now. I'm the first guy. Ugh. Oh, let's talk about that real quick. So this demon apparently, or Ezazo, can apparent can uh which apparently is a fallen angel slash demon. I don't know when they switch over the demon, but okay, we'll leave it a demon. This demon can uh jump soul uh especially when his host dies. But before his host dies, then he needs the power of touch. But only if I guess you're a bad person. Is that what you've that's what I picked up on and why he was so hyper focused on Hobb. Because they started out the conversation after the the execution at the bar when Lou was like harassing him about whether he likes cream. First of all, I thought these men was. Talking about freaking coffee at first. Listen, I was like, what the fuck?
SPEAKER_00:I'm like, I did, I'm like, I'm like, I'm sorry. Is that a euphemism for something?
SPEAKER_02:And yeah, at first I did not realize that because I was like, why is he bothering this man about his freaking coffee order? I guess cream.
SPEAKER_00:That just means um dirty copy essentially.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, just illegal shit. You just do illegal shit. Whatever it is, you just you take a little cream off the top, you just do illegal shit. Whatever it is. Like, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So Mans is like, yeah, I just don't like it. He's like, I don't judge you, you do whatever you do, but I'm just not of that. So it seems like, you know, Hobbes has this kind of uh morality. As he should as a cop, but you know, he has a kind of a higher uh moral compass than maybe some of the his other his other counterparts. But then it made me think about damn, was everybody just I don't want to say evil, but have some dirt on them? Like because he just passed people to people to people to people. Like nobody was like, there's only one scene I saw where he skipped somebody, and that's after the school teacher died, after Hobbes killed him, and the school teacher died, that there was a woman that was closer to the body, and he looked at her, and then he moved on to the other woman that was like a little further away.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Did you see that? So it just made me think that maybe she was like a good person, whatever, whatever the definition of good, that he can't enter the body at that point. But then in a in a and then uh with a continuity issue, later on he says, Oh, once I'm like, once my host has died, then I can enter anybody. So I was just like, well, then why he didn't just enter Hobbs at that point? I didn't understand that.
SPEAKER_00:So sorry, a lot for me to respond there for me to respond to. Um uh I'll do it in order. So the I didn't take it as he can only go into bad people. I took it as there are a select few people that are very difficult to possess and enter into. Um and unless you have to he he would have to wear them down, compromise them in some sense or something. But I don't think it's a good and bad thing. I think there are select few people, and I'm basing this off of the conversation he had with with Greta, where talking about like the chosen few on these type of things. I just think he was one of those people that Aziz will have a hard time because he tried to when he held his hand and it didn't work, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he said you're still good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I I don't think all those people on the streets of Philadelphia are bad people. Or when I say bad people, because we're all capable of bad. Everybody's capable of good and bad.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't mean like they're there murdering, but they've compromised and they're compromised in some way.
SPEAKER_00:You don't think so? Okay. I don't I don't think so. I don't think so. I I I I feel that because then this movie becomes way too cynical. And that could be the case if that's what they're going through, because then that means every single person that he was randomly able to pass through, these are all scumbags, you know, deplorable human beings. I I just I can't wrap my mind around that. So I just think there are a select few that are unable to be possessed as easily, right? I do think uh I do want to address the scene in the bar you were talking about when because you were talking about Hobbes having this higher morality and everything. I I read that conversation differently. Yes, I think he's better than I guess the average cop, and I uh uh you know, but it was given Blue Lives Matter. And I don't know if you got that vibe throughout the movie, but it was given Blue Lives Matter because what Denzel said when the guy was asking about doing cream, he said cops are he talked about cops are being like the chosen few and they do most more good than most people, even your lawyers, doctors, this and that, or whatever. Even the dirty cops, the ones who take a little bit of cream, which means that he can live with a dirty cop being in the street doing, you know, being a little, you know, take stealing a little bit of money, roughing people up or whatever, because in the long run, he just believed that police officers are this higher being, like um social status of this importance in the community that they are needed so you can they can get away. So even though he's not committing stuff, I don't think he'll see his partner doing some dirt. He's not gonna speak out on it, he's gonna turn the other cheek. Well, not turn the other cheek, but turn a blind eye to it, you know. So that's what I got from that interaction. And I was interested to see how his view on that would change throughout the movie. But yeah, so I I wouldn't say he I didn't picture, I wasn't reading him as this clean, completely moral, um, moral upstanding character. Uh he has some flaws and and there was some stuff in there he when it comes to how he views police officers.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I think that's a good point and definitely made me rethink as you were speaking. Um, no, I agree. That's hey, that's why we do the banter. I like it. I agree. Yeah. I I had uh in my mind. Yes, I should have. I guess this is the initial movie, but then as we move on, when we meet when he meets uh Greta and has more conversations with her, then yeah, you understand a little bit about more about these chosen few. Because she did say you have to have the right person with the right knowledge at the right time, and then that combination of right is the people who can defeat these demons or whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Um Greta was a hell of an exposition machine. My God.
SPEAKER_02:Immediately, oh, I don't want to talk to you, but also here's all this information. And I was like, Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00:No, I wrote this down in here where she says, she says, Oh, I don't, we're not supposed to know anything about this, but let me tell you everything that is to know about it. I'm like, what the fuck, lady? You just said that you don't know anything, you're not supposed to know anything, but it sounds like you know every single thing that is going on with this damn demon or whatever. So I don't know. She was just full of exposition.
SPEAKER_02:She was she was definitely the exposition demon there. She just she kept the story going. Without her, we would have not known what the hell's going on. It was just weird, sepia colored lenses, and Denzel just hearing time is on your side. And then we're like, okay. Yeah, yeah. Um, but real quick before we jump on, I just wanted to say that I also had that note, so I'm glad you picked up on that. About is it worth it if you do 90, 95, 99% good, and then you have that 1% of shitty. Is it really worth it? Is that okay? I think I think inherently as humans, it has to be. We don't want it to be, but yeah, you know, we're flawed in just by nature.
SPEAKER_00:So we are.
SPEAKER_02:And oh boy, yeah, so uh we're getting into some philosophical shit, huh?
SPEAKER_00:I know we're talking we're getting to f philosophy and religion here, you know, and like something I like to say is perfection is for the Lord, right? Like the perfect human being, like the like that's not to air is is the human nature, right? To make mistakes, you know? So it's not about you being great or perfect or awesome 100% of the time, it's you doing your best or trying to do your best 100% of the time, and then having the remorse and the self-awareness to recognize when you didn't do your best and then to try and do better, right? So we can't judge people, you know, off of how much good they do versus how much bad. We can not solely. It depends, right? Because even good and bad, there's a scale for that, right? Because when you say they're 99% good, there's 1% bad, right? So is the 1% bad, you know, they steal gum from the corner store, you know, every so often or whatever, or is it 1% bad that every now and again they like to murder someone? But only bad people, right? So then it's like, well, oh, uh, I mean, you donate in church, you take care of your kids. I know, yeah. You take care of your kids, your great partner um to your spouse, you you donate to charities and everything, but then you do a little bit of murder on the side, you know. So what is that person? I mean, they're a murderer. So maybe this is not a great example, but you you get what I'm saying when you talk about a 99% and a 1%, you know, because even you have to scale the bad action too. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and I think that you don't expect it, but that was this movie brought that out more than more than I mean, it has a little jump scares-ish. I mean, I didn't jump, but it it intended with the flash and the fang, and you know, so he's like, ah, but and the and obviously the creepiness of the time is on your side, but I think it actually moves more from a supernatural thriller to actually a philosophical movie that is I mean is hidden, it's not like very obvious as we're doing, but it really does look make you look at that and it makes you sit with kind of I was more really focused on these questions on morality, on goodness, on fate, on evil, and all that stuff, and and thinking about it in those ways of like what does it really mean? And then it is a hard question to ask as you're watching a movie, like that's definitely uh you know, a real deep dive into yourself, but just trying to really think about like, are you okay with the 1%? And yeah, what is the 1%? Where's that that limit? Obviously, stealing gum every other weekend, who cares? That's a dollar. Murdering a murderer. I mean, it's like it's wrong, but you know, is it right? You know, you know, so I don't know. It just I like the fact that this movie took you into questioning those things, especially as an adult now. You know, as a kid, I didn't get a crap about any of that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's a demon in here? That was as a kid, right? But yeah, I it comes down to your integrity, right? And I think I would say integrity kind of trumps the whole good versus bad thing, right? Yeah. Because integrity is doing good when no one's watching, right?
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Oh my god, bro.
SPEAKER_00:I yes yeah, if you have integrity, you're in good shape. You know, you're not gonna be still not a perfect being, but you're in good shape, you know. And with Denzel, and this is me extrapolating, with him seeing these dirty cops doing whatever, you know, and him not saying anything about it or chastising him, you know, it could make you question his integrity, right? However, that world of like cops snitching and cops, all that stuff, yeah, that's nowhere to live, right? So is it a good thing for Denzel, who by all intents looks like he is a really good, he's a good cop. Is it a good thing for him to go after this bad cop and then most likely get railroaded, gun and badge taken, eventually fired? So now we've taken a good cop off the street because he was trying to do a good thing by stopping bad cop. So now we're just in this rabbit hole of this conundrum of decision making, and what do you do? So that's why it's it's very difficult to say, oh, you're a bad person, you're a good person, you should have done this. And it's like, well, did you think about the different consequences, you know, for the actions, right? So I don't know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, it it totally, it definitely plays in that. It plays in this bad this concept of bad and good and evil and right and wrong and all that stuff. It's just it it makes you look well just in general, but also this movie kind of it drove those conversations for me where it makes me think about what does evil look like? Because there's the very obvious, there's the very, very obvious, but then there's also those subtle there's subtleties where it makes you like really question and makes you think or makes you see that it it's not always you know something with horns and smoke, you know. Sometimes it's the regular people that's around you, sometimes it's a system that you live in, i.e. the police system, where um I mean that is obviously, and I I don't want to get too political button crazy, but yes, it's a broken system. The police system is a broken system. I am might as well, right? The the police system is everyone. Everybody gets it. The police system is a broken system. Our justice system is a broken system. It's all about who you know, what you know, what you can get out of it. And though that isn't right, it's how it was built, and now we're just kind of living in it and hoping that we don't get pinched in the middle of it. But you know, and it's hard to fight a system, like an individual person. Yes, sure. I can say, hey, that's horrible, don't do that again. But to fight an entire system and then a country based on a system, what the hell? You're just there's nowhere to go. You just hope that you can not get pinched by it and do the best you freaking can. Um, and then yeah, and then another thing that I think also she brought up, which is like she even though she was like, You shouldn't, you don't want to know, and then immediately tells him. I was like, even if you do understand it, how do you fight it? That's the next thing. Like, okay, now I have all this knowledge, and now what? Now I'm even more uh culpable, maybe, because now I know that this thing exists, and now I'm really not doing anything about it. When I'm ignorant, and it's just like, well, I didn't know, but now I do know. Now I do know that, you know, XYZ does whatever on the holidays as a side gig, you know, silence are a little dope or whatever. But his daughter is getting cancer treatments and he's got to pay for the cancer treatment because, you know, our you know, our police uh uh whatever medical doesn't pay for it. So it's just like, uh, I rat him out, let his kid die. I mean, I did not let his kid die, I ain't do shit, but you know, that's I didn't do it. I didn't give his kid cancer, but at the same time, it's like uh he's selling drugs that are now maybe going to somebody else's kids who may now overdose.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah and now their kids, you know, so it's just like then at the same time, how do you tell him, hey man, you need to have faith in our medical system? Like, nah, man, you can't say that shit to the guy either because that shit sucks. There's no support for him, right?
SPEAKER_02:He's been trying. He's been trying. I'm sure he didn't just start out immediately as soon as he got diagnosed. Oh, I'm gonna sell some drugs. Like, I'm sure he was like, Well, I'm gonna report this to my superior, and blah, blah, blah, and you know, and everyone's like, Well, you better pray a little bit. And like, uh, okay, but what else? So, I don't know. Anyway, this went deep. I know, man. Wow. Another dynamic that I really liked, and you could you could, you know, give me your comments on. I also wanted to hear, especially from you, as you are a black man. Um, I really liked how uh Denzel's relationship with his brother, who you know seems to have suffered some kind of brain injury or something has happened. I don't know. They never explicitly say I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:I I I I interpret as he just that's how he was from birth, is how I kind of took it.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, maybe, yeah, maybe either an injury or you know, maybe he was, you know, just um yeah, maybe from birth. Sure. Um, but um I think that even though Denzel is kind of badass cop, you know, he's a decorated cop, everybody knows him, like he takes down this guy. He's kind of like a he's well known, he's you know, bad. He still has kind of a sensitive, not kind of, he has a a very sensitive uh approach to his brother and his brother's son, who is, you know, his nephew or whatever, that I thought that and this is just me thinking, I don't typically I don't think I ever I don't say ever, I don't think I've seen that very often in movies that sensitivity between two black men. Um especially when one's playing like a cop and it's supposed to be rough and tough, and you know, most of the most of the damn cops we already see they're drinking and smoking and you know, whatever, whatever. So um I think that also sticks with me, and why I kind of drive this as a better movie than some of the other movies that they said just because of Denzel's performance and his relationship between him and his brother, whose name is Art. Um, I don't think I said that, but um yeah, I think that even though there's all these other things, the supernatural chaos kind of happening, Denzel still shows up with humanity and he does it in kind of like a subtle way, kind of underrated ways. Not like, oh, look at me. I'm taking care of my my nephew and his uh and my brother, you know, even though you know I let my wife left me and whatever else may be going on, he's still making up making sure he's showing up for breakfast and making sure, like, hey, don't forget to do this, playing basketball with them, things like that. Um, he's trying to keep it together um while also, even though kind of things outside of the homes until it starts to penetrate the home, it's slowly kind of slipping through his fingers. So um I I thought that that was a really nice uh part of the movie. So, what do you what did you think as a black man? You know I hate to say it like that.
SPEAKER_00:As a black man, but let me speak for all black men. Um you know what though? I took all that for granted. And I don't know if it's just because the greatness of Denzel, um, I'm usually on board with whatever he does, you know, but that actual layer of insight, how you just frame and pose the question to me, I'm gonna be honest with you, I did take it for granted that that is not that that's not something that you would typically see. And even if it was a white cop doing that, like you wouldn't see that level of well, typically you would, especially for this trope, the trope of this character for this type of movie. And that stuff didn't take anything away from the movie. Usually when a movie diverges from its main story and plot and characters to show you something like that, you're like, oh my god, get me to the butt no, I I enjoyed those scenes with Denzel, well, with Hobbes and Art interacting with one another. It was very sweet to see that. And that's you also gotta take it a time. This is in the 90s, right? So that level of empathy and humanity and compassion and intimacy and stuff uh between two male characters, you wouldn't see it that often. And and in life, not even in movies, just in real life, right? But like I I consider myself blessed. I have a group of friends, male friends, where you know we interact with one another and we we tell each other, hey man, good job. Hey man, I see you're growing, you know? Hey, you know, you need a hug. Like we we have that level, but This is twenty twenty five, right? People are, you know, a lot of us go to therapy or have been to therapy before, which is just different. So I did take it for granted. But putting myself back into that time, yeah, that is that was pretty amazing of how Denzel was able to still be the hero cop and then still be a good like he didn't have to be this tortured individual that's like on this self-destructive path or anything. He's actually out there taking care of the people closest to him while also being good at his job. So that's actually impressive, and that is worth a lot with it being a black lead doing that, you know. So those are excellent points, and I did take that for granted. And I must say, my rating of this movie is going up the more we talk about it.
SPEAKER_02:Look at that.
SPEAKER_00:Again, I didn't hate the movie, I didn't even dislike the movie, but I'm liking it more the more we talk about it. So this is this is going well, very well.
SPEAKER_02:I thought about this at obviously there's a scene in which Art unfortunately dies, right? He was poisoned, correct? With the same poison um that uh, you know, the uh Reese or the demon was using on everybody else. Which where is this poison coming from? He just has. I'm so sorry, did he get that from the poison store or something? Like, where is he getting this? Is he making it? Like, why is this?
SPEAKER_00:But Denzel was able to get it and use it with no explanation. He said, Hey man, it's the same thing you use.
SPEAKER_01:I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_02:Like what? Yeah, yeah, I didn't know. I don't know. I mean, I think from Denzel, maybe he got it from like the evidence locker, maybe, but I you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think I don't think that's how evidence works. I don't think you would have a dangerous toxic.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it's the 90s, they just probably just walk in there like that.
SPEAKER_00:You would have like a report saying that this was the thing, but I don't I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know. Yeah, but he was trying, he was ending it at that point, so who cares if they like found it?
SPEAKER_00:I'm saying as far as evidence is concerned, you wouldn't have the actual toxin. You have reports saying that you had the toxin, you tested the toxin, and this is what it came back as, right?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, well, yeah, but I mean it's gotta be stored somewhere. I don't know. I don't know what what how evidence is works, but either way, apparently it's evidence, uh, apparently toxin just grows on trees. You can just collect it, mix it up, and there you go. So a little bit anyway. Yeah, right, exactly, exactly. They would the women were just killing their husbands, like, here, here's some tea. Like, what? Gotta get rid of them. Anyway, uh dang, where was I going with this? I'm sorry. Oh, yes, so I was just thinking about I couldn't figure out why he didn't possess the brother. Like he possessed the the nephew, but he didn't possess the brother, which made me still go back to the brother from birth, like he's probably from birth, had some kind of mental thing going on where he's just kind of like an innocent, almost childlike guy, even though he's a grown man, you know, he's you know, very oh, this is great, awesome. And that's just part of his personality, which is cool. So it made me think that maybe he could it, because again, he's quote unquote a good one. And or, you know, maybe he just wanted him to really f I don't know. I think he would have felt it more if he possessed him, forced him to do some crap where Denzel or um Detective Hobbs would have to make a very difficult decision, like i.e. killing him to save his nephew or something like that. I think that would be more impactful versus just like killed him in his sleep with the poison, you know. I don't know. What are you what are your thoughts there? Did you see anything with that? Do you think about that? I am I thinking too deep.
SPEAKER_00:No, maybe well, maybe you are. I I think this line of thinking and questioning exposes some of the issues with the movie, right? Which is the rules of Azazel. The rules are all over the movie. Yeah, it's all over. It doesn't really line up, it's inconsistent at best. And that's where when I start to have a problem because if you're gonna give me exposition and lore and rules, you gotta stick to it, you know. But it also has to be ironclad. And you implying that um you as the the movie director, you implying that the Azizel can only move through people if they're not good, but he's literally, literally just hopscotching his way through anybody that's on the streets, right? But then it's like, well, no, there's certain people he can't, so who are these certain people and then why not? And then, oh, he's most powerful when he's not in a body, but then there's still limitations to that. It's it's all over the place, and I think like the real answer is that they just they just thought it'll be more poetic, they being the director, it'll be more poetic if he just came back and found um the because there was also him writing the letters. How when did he write the letters on the school teacher? The school teacher had APO written on his chest, on the mirror in the bathroom, there was C-A-L, on the boy, the the nephew was Y, and then PSE was on his brother, which spells apocalypse in the most convoluted way. It's just the motivations of the demon was very unclear, and I guess that's part of it. He's just an agent of chaos, so he's just chaotic evil, right? Which I guess that's the one.
SPEAKER_02:I don't think he has a real yeah, yeah. I think that's that is his trope. It doesn't he don't have a reason, he's just there.
SPEAKER_00:But then I felt like the movie and other characters they were trying to add more meaning to it, which was that's where I was having it wasn't connecting for me because it seems to me like Azazel's just out there fucking around, doing whatever he wants, and he's he's set his sights on on Hobbes, and Denzel's carried on Hobbes, and I think Azazel decided, ooh, it would be really fun if I could break this human being. I want that, so I'm just gonna fuck shit up along the way and try and so that makes sense to me, but then they he's writing the word apocalypse, you know. The the the the other characters uh Hobbes and and Greta are looking at the Bible and revelations, and like it's it just got to be a lot. So I'm like, what which one is it? Is this like a demon that's about to bring up brought the end of the world, or is it he's just literally just killing people at random for the fun of it, you know? I just think that those thematically those things just didn't line up at the end.
SPEAKER_02:Folks, you can't see it, but he just gave a a half shrug, like, yeah, that's what I got. So I guess that's what he got.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's that that was really it. Because okay, so and then one more thing on that. Um, because I thought when I was when he just saw Azazel leave after Reese was murdered, and then he was hopping around people, I thought he was looking for like the perfect specimen or something, right? He he went through the the CEO, the corrections officer, and then I think the black lady was next. Then there was this black guy, then this muscle up dude, and then this I call him string bean, but this this skinny guy, um, he landed in there, so I thought he was gonna stay in that body, and alright, this is a body I'm gonna use. Because that guy looked kind of depraved walking the streets. Like out of all the people he went through, I'm like, oh yeah, this is the one, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, who already appealed somebody for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, for sure. Or or at least he's written a lot of fucking uh journals about doing it, right? So I'm like, alright, that guy's the one. But then he killed, so he stalked Hobbes for a little bit, then he killed one person, and then he switched into a new body. So like going through so we're looking at the movie from the end, right? And like holistically, but going through it step by step, I just felt like Azazo's goals like kind of change every time, and I kept feeling like the movie started to change, like every every turn it kept changing. At least that's how I was feeling it. Because I thought he was just gonna Because it seems like he was in Reese's body for a long time. Okay, so then let's so let's take a look at the Bible verse, right? Since this is supposed to be so important, because now I just negated everything I was saying, because now it's not just that Reese and um Greta were trying to make things more important, he's leaving these clues for them, right? So Revelation 18 2 says, And he cried madily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. If I am to interpret this with no theological training, this verse is essentially speaking to essentially speaking to hell on earth. Babylon the greatest fallen, is fallen, fallen, rule credits, so that's the name of the movie, and it's become the habitation of devils and the whole the very false so it so it's essentially saying we're talking about hell on earth and corrupting the people but how is Azazel doing that by himself because it's not like he infects a bunch of people and then they all only the person that he's in becomes the devil. So I don't know, I don't know. It there was something about the movie that I wanted it to be greater, and I can't put my finger on it, but I'm not paid to do that, you know. I'm not a director, producer, writer or any other of anything, but there's something about the movie that I feel like it didn't exactly stick to the landing um of all the different themes that it kind of presented to us and how they were going about it. So I just when it ended, I was kind of like, huh. That was my reaction.
SPEAKER_01:Hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Alright. Um, I didn't hate it, I wasn't angry, but I just I didn't feel fully satisfied, I think is the best way to put it. But I'm not 100% clear on why I am.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that I agree. I agree that we needed a better closed loop. But then I also I think that maybe the point. It was just like some things are and it is what it is.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And nothing you can do about it. You know, as much as we think that we're in control, there's also some some forces that are outside of our control.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And you could take that philosophically, systematically, whatever you would like. But um I think the way it ended gave me that that final, like, it is what it is. And this will you could do all you can do, but it's gonna continue. Which is kind of damning damning and kind of like uh, like uh, it doesn't matter what I do, might as well just murder someone then.
SPEAKER_00:But so then so so that that I guess that does lean to what you initially premised at the beginning of this pod, was that all those people that the movie is more cynical, right, than than you would think. So that could mean that all those people it did go through, all those people are fucked up in some type or way that allows Azizel to freely move past them, which is dark. That's a dark uh message, if that's what the movie was going for. And it probably is what it was going for, because at the end of the day, Azizel is free enrollment in that universe, messing shit up.
SPEAKER_02:So that reminds me when you say freely, when he was passing, like so Greta, who's obviously been preparing for this her entire life, as soon as she's met with an actual demon, it immediately folds, and I was like, Jesus Christ, you didn't have no kind of scripture, incantation, something you could have just at least tried. She immediately folded and was like saved by like laundry, which was just weird. But then whatever. Then she starts running in a straight line, and Azizel is chasing her just by touching the people in front of her, which I thought was hilarious. I love that scene. And she's just booking it somehow. I don't know how she didn't run into anybody because it was a crowded ass street, but yeah, apparently was it clear enough for her to run in a straight line. Yeah, I mean it was clear enough. I feel like I would have ran into a lot more people than she did. But either way, she just running. He's touching the person in front of her, and my thought is like, cross the damn street. Like, why are you staying in this straight line? Like, damn. But also, that was just a cool like passage of people, and like he's just touching, touching, touching, and it's just literally moving through, and she's booking. But all right, so now we beat philosophy, uh theology, uh, and uh systems to death now. So let's talk about the main man, the one, the only, Mr. Denzel Washington.
SPEAKER_00:Denzel.
SPEAKER_02:You had a you had a few points you wanted to bring up about the performance.
SPEAKER_00:Sure, yeah. So as the movie star, I watched this with Risa, right? And uh, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Had she seen it before?
SPEAKER_00:She actually had. I was very surprised. Oh, okay. Um, she said she said she was like in a room when her parents or some somebody was watching it when she was younger, you know. But yeah, she said she had seen it, so it was coming back to her as she was watching it. But it was funny we had the same reaction, and I actually wrote it down because I was thinking in my head, and then she like said my thoughts out loud. And as the movie started, that thought was ah, a young Denzel. And I promise you, I thought it that way, and she said that shit out loud. And just as he hits the screen, you just he's so magnetic, you know. You just you're ready for whatever's about to happen. You're like, all right, this guy's gonna take you through it. I will say I'm glad he ditched the gum because he was tearing through that gum in that first scene when he was in the prison, right? But just every time Denzel was on the screen, I I I wrote down I thought he was a good, he was actually a good police officer. I feel like in a lot of his movies, the detectives kind of suck, you know, or were like, Oh, dude, this, why are you not doing that? Or turn around, and like that scene when he was walking down the street, and um I think Azizo was in like body number two at this point, the more heavy set guy, and he was following him, and Denzel kept like turning around, like what the f like someone is here, and he was heading to his car, and when he saw the shadow in the stairwell, he was like, Oh, I got you, and he chases him. Like, all that, like I felt good about his perception, the way he was portraying his character. We talked about his relationship at home with his brother and nephew, all that stuff was great. Um, even when he met Greta for the first time, and usually in scenes like this, when it's like, oh yeah, the occult exists. Most actors I feel kind of fuck that up. Where I'm not convinced that they just found out about demons for the first time in their life, you know. Um, and I I guess a jury might be out on how because I think Denzel had like a delay like after the fact he was kind of freaking out about it, like he was trying to process it, which that's realistic. You would try and like wrap your mind around things, but it was while he was in the middle of of speaking to the to Greta, and um not for the first time, I'm sorry, for the second time, when they were out in the square in public for whatever weird reason.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my god, I have that note there. I was like, Go ahead, go ahead. But I I was I was so I was so taken by this scene. I was like, why are they screaming this very apparently sensitive information? And he's not even are they outside, but he's like 20 feet away from her. Like, I was like, why he's like circling her like a shark, and she's sitting in the middle, and they're just like talking back and forth, really, this is what's going on? And I'm like, uh, why is this competition not being happening in the privacy of their I know, like in her home with the first home, her office, because she's a theology professor, something, but yeah, okay, sure, here. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:What I love though about that whole interaction after Greta hits him with the exposition dump, my guy starts flirting with her in the middle of this crisis. I'm like, is this guy what are you doing, dog? Like, did you pick did you catch that? He I forgot what he asked her, but um, he literally just started flirting with her in the middle of that whole scene, and then they were like, Alright, we're gonna go our separate ways, right? So Denzel just being Denzel. Um I was trying to track his growth throughout the movie, and I don't think my one criticism, and this is not him, this is a writing problem. I don't think that he went through a lot of growth. And you could challenge me on this for sure. Because when I was for as far as growth, I was looking at I talked about how he was viewing cops and that they are like they are the power, the high power, you know, in keeping order. And him grappling with that versus the religion and a higher deity existing. I saw him flirting with it, but it never quite got there for me. Like, I don't feel like at the end of the movie, his whole thinking and and his ideology as far as like you know, all cops are worthwhile, even if they they you know take a little cream or whatever. I I never really got that he made that shift, and I thought that that's what they had set up. Because like I said, in the beginning, I wrote in my note Blue Lives Matter. Like I had that Denzel was so pro-police, so I was looking for that to get shaken a little bit, and I don't think that ever really happened. Um did you see differently, or what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02:I'm thinking as you're speaking to see if I can uh if I have a rebuttal or if I have if I'm in agreement. I guess I didn't.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I oh no, I agree. I didn't see much I didn't see much growth from the beginning of his character to the end of his character in the movie. I think, and like you said, I don't know if that's uh him thing or a writing thing, or yeah, probably a writing thing. It's gotta be a writing thing, yeah. Yeah, I did think that I actually did feel a little bit of the inauthicity, I guess, with like like it did feel like he already knew about demons. Like I I didn't get the like complete like oh my god, shock. And like you said, maybe it was delayed or something, but like I felt like he was bouncing back and forth between This is real and this is creepy.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly. That was inconsistent for sure.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was weird. It was like he came to her, like, yo, these strange things are happening, and she's like, Oh, well, demons. And he was like, Get the fuck out of here. It's like, the fuck? Like, you see what's happening though. Like he he f I think that was after the When when uh Azazel first penetrated the police station when he went through Lou and then he went through Mike or someone else and then Mike and then the lady or whatever.
SPEAKER_00:That makes you a believer, right? Like if that if that doesn't make you a believer, it makes you question. And then when that woman says it out loud to you, you're like, okay, that is what I saw, right? Right. How do you still tell her to fuck off? You know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. You start laughing in her face, she's like straight face, like, I mean, I mean, yo, it is what it is. Like, you know. And he just so that was kind of weird because he came to her with the strangeness. She gave an explanation, which, okay, maybe you're not expecting it, but get the fuck out, or what she said. He said, fuck off, or whatever, or get the fuck out of here, or whatever. It was just kind of a weird reaction. So I was like, okay. Um. So I don't, I I felt like this they put that in there to kind of force the authenticity of like demons don't exist in my world.
SPEAKER_00:But I, you know, I didn't I didn't necessarily like that part, but because he had already seen demonic activity. So if that conversation happened before the precinct scene, okay, cool. But after you saw, you saw very clearly they were touching each other and the song was passing by and they had no memory of it happening.
SPEAKER_02:Right. You remember you were singing that song? What song? No, I saw Mike sing it. I saw Haley sing, I don't know, whoever else and I sing it, but I didn't sing it. You mess with me, you were singing it. Why are you singing that? And then you talk to Mike. Why are you why are you singing that song? What song? And then he's watching, and then especially, especially when he when he runs outside with the old couple, and they're one starts talking, and then he touches the next one, the other one finishes the sentence and it just kind of bounces back and forth. It was just like, okay, you're seeing what she had. She already kind of said it with the touch thing, and then now you're seeing it, and then you come back like, hey, this is what it is. So it was kind of weird, but um aside from that, and so I didn't really see the growth there. Um, and I don't know if it was in, you know, I don't know if he was in like I said, I think he was intended to just stick in the is it is what it is.
SPEAKER_00:So I don't know if then the growth was really intentional or needed, but there was there was one scene where he did start to moralize on what was going on, and he talked about when he was speaking to Greta about why why would God be so concerned with us if he's so powerful? And he equated to like, do you care about an ant that's walking around? You don't, you wouldn't. So why would God, you know? And but then that was really it. So I think that's what was lacking from me. I guess they had needed to just dive deeper into those kind of conceptual things while still pulling off the thriller action stuff. But they would flirt with it, they would give us a little bit, and then then some like, ah, whatever. And he's like let me go catch some black guys, let me go catch a demon, you know? Yeah, so that yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But I think that was that's that was just his character. He was just based in in um or yeah, his character and how he portrayed it, he was just based in facts and justice, and it crumbled, it crumbled in front of him, and he he did not react well, he didn't react to it. He just kind of was like, no, it has to be this, it has to be this, and not to like damn near the end, but at that point it was like, yeah, you he lost. Too bad. But either way, um, another thing I did like about Denzel's performance in this is that yes, that opening scene, young Denzel, when he's flipping the coin and then it pans up and it's it's Denzel. You're like, ah, it's Denzel, you know, it's a great shot, night, very nicely done. Um but the other thing I also did like about this was um the the quiet intensity there. Like he doesn't have, you know, there's no like King Kong ain't got nothing. You don't have that, you know, you don't have that what kinda you're right.
SPEAKER_00:I have a quote here at the very end that I love. I listened to it three times. But when you're done, I'll let's hear the quote. So he had one.
SPEAKER_02:He better do it in his Dandel voice, too.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I'm gonna try my best. Listen, go for it. For the most part, he was very subdued, like you were saying, but at the one minute 48 second mark, sorry, the one hour and 48 minute mark. Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah, no, not at the beginning. I'm sorry, at the end of the movie, when he's at the cabin and he's waiting for a Zizzle to show up. And he's like walking around the cabin. First of all, I don't know, it's unclear to me how they even found him in the woods, but that's a whole nother thing. But Denzel's in the cabin by himself, waiting for a Zazel, and he says, I knew you'd come. And he speaks some Aramaic, uh Aramaic. He said, Haven't you done enough? Huh? Made me kill an innocent man? You murdered my brother? Come on out, you son of a bitch. How much more fun can you have, huh? Yeah. Scene. That shit fucking fire. Okay? Go back and listen to it. One hour forward. I'm gonna have to look back. That shit, you son of a bitch. Give me chills. I was like, come on now. That's some dead Zell, alright? That's so that's the one. I would say if you're looking for a quotable, like where's his speech thing in the movie? That's it right there. Promise you. It's so good. That is so good.
SPEAKER_02:That is it. No, that is it. That's my that is my fault. That is my fault. That is it. It was just so late in the movie that it was just like, all right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like, damn near the end. In fact, I think I at the end I wasn't even listening with the sound on. I was just reading the captions. I don't think I heard like the inflection.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god, you gotta you gotta hear the the delivery. I didn't hear the delivery. That sentence delivery, like how he put those sentences. It was it was really good. It was really good. I I listened to it, like I said, like three times. I rewinded it to to hear him, how he did that delivery, you know. Um yeah, so and you know what, speaking of of over the top, not over the top, but like, you know, big speeches and everything. How was the because we're pretty much at the end of the movie now? How was the John Goodman being the final villain reveal for you?
SPEAKER_02:I have my quotes. I have my quotes here.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I'm gonna I'm gonna c I'ma give you a second to clear out. So it's I I was shocked when he shot the lieutenant because they had Lieutenant as a red herring all movie that Lieutenant was up to some shit.
SPEAKER_02:I okay, okay, wait, before we go into John Bowman, let's go there. Because Lieutenant confused the hell out of me. He was just as bad as Greta and her. I'm not telling you, but here's everything. Because at first he was he was definitely the red heron. Yeah, he was like, Oh, if you find anything out, don't do anything. But then he was like, But tell me everything you found. And then he was like, Oh, we gotta blame you. But then also, I know you're a good guy. And then I was like, What the fuck is he doing? I I didn't understand his character, I didn't understand his point. I didn't other than other it didn't make it it frustrated me, it frustrated me to no end.
SPEAKER_00:He doesn't work in this movie because we already know it's a supernatural being moving around. So for you to unless they were trying to imply that on top of this supernatural being, there's this dirty cop who's just like terrible and fucking shit up, but I'm like, that's not the story. So why is this character Troop in here who's just getting in Denzel's way, telling him don't do anything about it, don't tell anyone, don't act on it. It was unnecessarily messy. So when he gets it feels that the only reason that happened is that when he got there at the cabin at the end, for us to be like, ooh, Azizzo's in the lieutenant's body, which wasn't the case. But no, they didn't need to give us all that crazy, just inconsistent shit before for us to think that it just didn't make any sense, you know?
SPEAKER_02:But it didn't make any sense. Even the even the the especially, especially, especially, especially. This is what really tipped me off, too. Uh he was acting like he was like he was getting some some higher up orders or something from someone, something, and I'll it was just weird. But then when he shot the school teacher, uh huh. I don't know. When he shot the school teacher, and then they were like, Oh, well, we have multiple witnesses that confirm that he shot he shot first, but yeah, I might have to arrest you. I was like, the fuck why why you have multiple witnesses that said he shot first, and he was like, Well, there were blanks. I was like, Well, how the fuck would he know that?
SPEAKER_00:Like, would he know that? I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02:How would he know that? And why would you be arresting him? Like, I understand, you know, take the gun, do a little bit of analysis on it, whatever, whatever. Like, you know, on SBU and whatever. I can understand that, but he's like, Oh, I might have to arrest you if it comes down to it, I'll arrest you.
SPEAKER_00:I'm like, arrest the people fucking contrived so that just so that we could put Denzel in in like he's being hunted and he's like the the villain of the movie, like frame him or whatever, make him feel desperate. I'm like, guys, like, do what you're saying doesn't make any sense. You have people watching, seeing that this pool this teacher lost his shit, started speaking Aramaic, and fired shots off. And Denzel, being a police detective, drew his gun after the fact.
SPEAKER_02:Told him put it down several times.
SPEAKER_00:Disarm himself several times, and before he pulled the trigger again, seeing he was about to pull the trigger, fired a shot so that he and no no of the none of the many civilians would be harmed. And you're telling me, oh, well, he had blanks, so you shouldn't have killed him. Get the fuck out of here. Like, how would you even how would any police officer, anybody know that the person who's shooting what looks like a gun, that sounds like a gun, that is a fucking gun, is actually firing non-lethal uh rounds firing blanks. That's that was that shit made me so angry. I guess it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_02:That that whole section could have just been cut out. Like I I really didn't know.
SPEAKER_00:They just wanted Denzel to be on the run. They just wanted him to be on the run.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. And yeah, I don't okay. Yeah, I don't know. It was weird. And that that that that took me out of the movie a bit, and that threw me a little, it took me out of the movie.
SPEAKER_00:A lot. Because he even said, Oh, the gun he it was a stash gun that he got from someone else's car. I'm like, again, he doesn't know this guy. All he saw was a guy who run into a car, pull out a gun. Which was crazy because Risa asked me, how did I how did he know a gun was in there? And I said, I just assumed that that was the school teacher's car. I assumed it was too. But then the lieutenant said, no, he just found a gun in a different car. So I'm like, what the fuck?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I guess Azil had just. And then like stole a car, put a gun there.
SPEAKER_00:So he was stalking that guy, he wrote his chest like a couple like a night before or something, and he just knew that he and Denzel would be in this cat and mouse situation. Right a school was letting out so he could possess that guy's body. You see where the movie starts to fall apart, and I'm just like, um what is going on, guys?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:So back to John Goodman, right?
SPEAKER_02:John Goodman. I have the only quote I heard from the movie was from John Goodman.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, for real. So I'll let you read that off in one second. I my thing was I was surprised that John Goodman killed him. He was a Zazzel, but honestly, while I was watching the movie, I was like, hmm, this is kind of uh a subdued role for John Goodman. Not that he wasn't in, he was in a lot of scenes, he just wasn't doing much. And then when he killed Pana, I was like, there it is. Because John Goodman turned on that John Goodman switch and started being John fucking Goodman at the end of that movie, and I said, Oh, they were saving it for the end, and he just started hamming it up, chewing up the scenery, and just being so fucking dramatic, but in a John Goodman way, you know? So, what was the quote that you had?
SPEAKER_02:John Goodman says when they start really start putting together the clues and everything, like, well, this killer killed this guy before and now he's dead. What does this mean? And you saw this guy, John Goodman says, Someone's playing with my dick, and it ain't me. It was so weird. But that was the quote I got from the movie, and I was like, Yep, that's it. That's John Goodman. So heck yeah. So, yes, it's it's one of like you know, people around Hobbes is being possessed or dying. So you assume that the partner is going to be taken as well at some point, but you don't actually see it, but you know something's gonna happen to him, but you don't know exactly when. So it becomes kind of like an emotional kind of pressure point if you're like paying attention to that thing. Like, um, and then when you finally get the big reveal at the end, the possession finally hits close home, close to home. Um, Goodman really, really sells it. He does it so well. He goes from like this warm partner energy to this unsettling, unpredictable, mocking, all without going, not he's not going over the top at all. It's just like his physical presence, he's a big dude.
SPEAKER_00:But aside from that, I don't know if he didn't you say he didn't go over the top. He called him a pussy at one point. He did a fucking job. I don't think he went over the top. He did a fucking jig, like that damn crossfit um thing, like when he was in the cabin looking for it. I don't know. I thought he went over the top.
SPEAKER_01:I thought that lined up.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't say it was bad. I'm not saying he didn't, I didn't like it. I thought it was over the top, though. Like I but I love that it was over the top. I feel like it was over the top. It was a lot. I feel like it was a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, that's cool. I thought it I didn't think I didn't think it was over the top. I thought it lined up with his possession because he's trying to, I think you're trying to show like a very distinct line between Jonesy and now Jonesy as a Zazel.
SPEAKER_00:Or but every time a Zazel took someone else, he wasn't like that theatrical, you know. He's like stalking, he's like, yeah, he's been like smarmy, smarky, snarky. There's a word snarky or whatever. But I don't know. John Goodman was like, when he was in John Goodman, he was like taking a victory lap already, like I got you beat, you know, like I'm the man, you know, you suck. I don't know. I just feel like it. I I I I received the performance differently. I still liked it equally as much as you did, but I just I took it in a different way. I I thought it was a lot. Um, but it was it was cool, it was funny.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, I I agree, it was different, but I think that also lends to the fact that he was exactly, he was taking the victory line. He's like, I won. Like I can possess anybody I want, even the closest person to you, and you will never know until I want you to, which is exactly what it showed. So um, so yeah, I I didn't think it was over the time. I think it lined up, but you know, I I get what you're saying compared to like his other possessions where he was like practically a cat intent. But yeah, uh, but uh yeah, no, I I love John Goodman and it he came out of nowhere. You you think he would just gotta be like, oh, I guess John Goodman was in there, but nope, he saved the last what 10 minutes, 15 minutes for him and being like about you know a great blend of humor, but sincerity and menace just kind of all blended together, and he did a great job there.
SPEAKER_00:It was basically really good right before he started Lieutenant and all. I I liked all of that. Uh no notes about any of that. Um yeah, so I did a little research on Azazel, and because when I heard the name Azazel, like it it piqued my interest, you know. Like I do the whole supernatural, like that was sorry, not supernatural as a concept, the TV show Supernatural was on my altar. Oh, I love supernatural. Oh yeah. What? You know, Sam.
SPEAKER_02:Did you not know this about me? Uh I did not know that. But did you know that about me?
SPEAKER_00:No, I did not. Okay then.
SPEAKER_02:You know, when you uh man, dang. I'm so sorry. I know you want to see your point, but when you said looking for the post perfect host, I thought about Sam and Dean when they were when um Michael was looking for him and um Satan was looking for him because there was a perfect host.
SPEAKER_00:Well then this kind of became a supernatural pod if you if you did that. Yeah, yeah. All right, cool. We're at a scoring time, we're doing our criteria. Plot and writing. What did you give Fallen?
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah, so for plot and writing, I gave it a four out of ten. I think that the script itself has some structural issues that we've mentioned several times throughout this this um this podcast. So um it kept and I do agree that it it kept reaching for that next level and just never really got there, which you know it is what it is. So for plot and writing, I definitely gave it a four. Um, what about you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, actually, I I thought I had a higher scoring, but no. I have a three on that um for the for the plot and write-in. It was there's a lot of holes in it. Um and there were like while we're talking in this podcast, I'm asking you, I'm saying, I don't know if this was a write-in issue, sounds like a writing issue. There were issues with the movie um as far as the writing and everything. So I I gave it a three. Wasn't very wasn't very strong. Uh acting and casting, what did you give that?
SPEAKER_02:The acting and casting was also, I think, weak. Um yes. Oh, no, no, no. Okay, so hear me out. I'm listening. Acting and casting aside of outside of Denzel and John Goodman, I think was pretty weak. Like, you know, Denzel obviously brought a lot of death to Hobbes. John Goodman brings a personality to Jonesy, but everybody else, like it you almost didn't even need them. I mean, you needed Exposition Girl, because okay, and the lieutenant was just there. Uh, you know, everybody else really didn't make sense. Reese Reese did a good job too. I'm sorry, I forgot in the beginning. He was very thank you. He was very creepy, he was he did his part, he did his job for sure. So I am I apologize. Um, what's his name again? His real name?
SPEAKER_00:Elias Coteas.
SPEAKER_02:Elias, okay. I like Elias. That's a strong name. Um, so I would also give that, I would give that a five. I'll give that a five. That's a mid five. I I was gonna say a four, but because of Reese, I bumped it up one. So I'm gonna give it a five.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. I was I was a good bit higher than that. I gave it a seven. Um yeah. You gave a lot of credit to Denzel and John Goodman. It's a Denzel, yeah, it's a Denzel movie. Okay. Um the three the three people that you mentioned, um, I think all their performances was great, were were great. Uh, so I didn't really care about the others. The only because even exposition girl, meh, whatever. There's always gonna be exposition in in any, especially these types of movies. The only acting job that I feel that someone did below their capabilities was Donald Sutherland as a lieutenant, just because his character didn't make any fucking sense. So that's not necessarily a knock on Donald Sutherland, but the character just didn't make any sense. But I I gave a seven for that category.
SPEAKER_02:You know what? Let's bump it up to a six.
SPEAKER_00:I'm okay. Okay, okay, all right. Look at that. Changing minds and hearts. All right, production, cinematography, and visuals.
unknown:I thought.
SPEAKER_02:This is really good for a 90s movie. I mean, I I give it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. I had I gave it a six. So we're about in the same same neighborhood. I agree. Nothing, nothing crazy, nothing terrible. The Azazel POV shots were creepy and it did its job. It was nice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um of the scenes, some other scenes were kind of like similar, like fight scenes with it when you're looking through Azazel's point of view, because it's the kind of like I don't know what drunk goggles type thing that is happening. It was kind of hard to tell like what exactly was happening. Like it was a bit jarring at times.
SPEAKER_00:Because even that scene that we really liked with the um Greta running through the crowd, every time it was switched back to Azazel's POV, it was like it was so disorienting. I still enjoyed the scene, but it was it was weird. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I call it the drunk goggles because it was like, what the f it was it was kind of weird to tell like what was happening, but but still I for a 90s movie with not a lot of like production CGI type stuff, I thought I thought it was done really well, so I'll give it a seven. But okay.
SPEAKER_00:Music and sound.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I didn't really get I mean you have time is on a side uh you know um is on a side. So I for that, for the for that, for just that creepy line and the way it just played through the movie, I a solid five.
SPEAKER_00:Five, that's exactly what I have. I have a five as well. Um yeah, move the the e because even the song, Time is on a side, like it's not really true because Azizel doesn't have a lot of time once he leaves the body. Like, time was not on his fucking side. So this song wasn't even really thematically chosen, it's just as a nice song, and then the rest of the movie, you know, is what it is. Cultural impact.
SPEAKER_02:What did you put for um so because of so at first I did have it a little lower because it you know it wasn't the best of Denzel, but it is still a cult classic. So I enjoy the movie, but I think as we talked about uh the philosophical standpoint, theological standpoint, like the questions it made us think about, even if you know we're not going like super in-depth with it right now. Yeah, I would actually give it a little bit higher number than I was intending. I think originally I was at five, so I would give it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god. Really?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I went high. I went high. That is. I like movies that make me question things, so I'm gonna give it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:I know, I know. And so my score, I did score this before our discussion, and I had a three.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I will bump it up to a five because of our discussion.
SPEAKER_02:So we both went up two points. I was at five, and I went seven, you went three, five. So okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So okay. All right. I'll give it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:Um okay, cool. So you you have a rank higher uh than I do. Yeah, so you have 29 out of 50, I have a 26 out of 50, but we're in the same kind of range. We will one day figure out what we're doing with these scores and contextualize them because it's just a bunch of random numbers right now. Yeah. But yeah, that's that. So before we sign off here, uh, because this is this will this is episode seven, which will be airing uh on December 19th. Are following.
SPEAKER_02:Somebody's gonna have a baby around that time.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I there there should be a new addition to my family around that time, either before or after that episode, I'm not sure. But we will see uh how things get after that. But we're gonna do a special episode the day after Christmas, right? December 26th. That'll be our episode eight to close out this year. Well, the 2025 year. So uh stay tuned for that. Make sure, listeners, um whatever, however many listeners we have thus far, thank you for being a part. Check us out the day after Christmas. We will have a special episode where we will cover a different topic or do something a little bit different than what we have been doing uh for these prior seven episodes. This has been a very fun journey for us. It is just the beginning, and we're looking forward to seeing what 2026 has in store for the podcast. So just wanted to get that little message out there.
SPEAKER_02:That was very nice. Look at you.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. Yeah, I guess, you know, man of the people, you know. Anywho. Definitely. Well, that concludes our real talk and banter on the 1998 Denzel movie Fallen. Some think it's rated number seven 47, some people think it's ranked number nine. You decide where it ranks in your heart. Thank you.