Certainty is an Emotion, Not a Fact: Doubt (2008)

You can feel the temperature drop the moment Doubt (2008) begins. A Catholic priest delivers a sermon on doubt, and within minutes we’re watching a 1964 Bronx school tighten into suspicion, certainty, and quiet fear. We’re Omari Williams and Jay Richardson, and we go scene by scene through John Patrick Shanley’s drama to figure out what the film is really testing: the truth, or our need for it.

We talk about Meryl Streep’s Sister Aloysius as a force of rigid order, Amy Adams’ Sister James as the nervous conscience in the middle, and Philip Seymour Hoffman’s Father Flynn as a man whose warmth can read as care or as strategy. The conversations about proof versus intuition get sharp fast, especially once the story pivots to Donald Miller and the question nobody can answer cleanly: what do you do when you suspect harm, but you can’t prove it?

Then Viola Davis walks in as Donald’s mother and the whole moral equation changes. We unpack how race, class, domestic abuse, and a child’s isolation shape what “protection” even means in that era, and why a parent might make a choice that looks unthinkable from the outside. We also get into the film’s final gut punch, what “I have doubts” might actually be about, and we wrap with our full ratings across plot, acting, cinematography, sound, and cultural impact.

If you like film analysis that respects complexity and doesn’t dodge the hard questions, subscribe, share this with a movie friend, and leave us a review with your verdict: did Father Flynn do it, and what convinced you?

Transcript

Welcome And Film Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Hello and welcome to the Real Talk and Banter Podcast, the movie podcast where we discuss and review films that are at least a decade old. I'm Omari Williams.

SPEAKER_05 0:40

And I'm Jay Richardson.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

And today we are discussing the 2008 drama film Doubt, starring Mel Streep, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Amy Adams, and Viola Davis.

SPEAKER_05 0:55

Whew.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

What a lineup.

SPEAKER_05 0:58

Yeah. He didn't tell me Amy Adams was in this. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

He only mentioned the two leads and then Viola, which Viola, she had 12, had one scene in the fucking movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

I thought she was gonna be a little bit more than a little bit more than that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

No, I mean so I did try and tell you it wasn't a lot, but I couldn't remember how little it was, but it was 12 minutes long, though. It was just I guess that's a significant portion of the movie. So yeah, I guess that is a significant portion of the movie. It's just one scene. It was one scene and then a little cameo a few seconds at the end, but um well, you know, in the church thing. But it counted, yeah. That was a powerful just 12 minutes. Uh because she got she got an Oscar nomination for that for a 12. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Oh, you don't think so? That was Oscar worthy?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Really?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

No. I didn't know you hated Viola Davis.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

First of all, Jesus. Absolutely not. You will not get me canceled on this show. I never said that.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

God damn. I love that shit gave me chills. Really did give me chills. Alright, well, we'll get into all of that and and much more to come. Uh, but we do have four heavyweights um leading this movie, and what a collection of talent. So it's a screenplay that's adapted for a film. Um written by John Patrick Shanley, and he also directed the movie as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Um, and then produced by Scott Ruddin. I don't know who Scott Ruddden is. Oh, he did oh he did No Country for Old Men, Uncut Gems, Girl with a Dragon, Tattoo, Social Network, so he's a big dog as well. Um yeah, so this movie essentially is it's set in 1964, dealing with it's at a Catholic school in the Bronx, and it's it's a very small location as far as the sets goes. It's just the school, and then we're just kind of in rooms. There's a few outdoor scenes, right? But essentially Meryl Streep is a nun. Philip Seymour Hoffman is the priest of the church and school. And sorry, Meryl Streep is a nun, but she's a principal of the school. Amy Adams, also a nun, is a teacher, and there's questions about the interactions between Philip Seymour Hoffman, uh his character's father Flynn, and one of the boys in the school. So the whole movie circles surrounds their interaction and trying to discover the truth, what's real, what's not real, and it's just it takes us down just just fascinating kind of exploration of um of morality and and um you know it's of course religion because of the setting, but it it's more of a moral story, an ethical story, I I would say is is at the forefront of the themes of the of the movie. How did you feel about watching this? How did you how did you feel about the movie? Were you into it? Because I I did come to you very highly, you spoke very high about the movie.

SPEAKER_05 4:17

You did.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Um did I overhype it? Did you were you captivated?

SPEAKER_05 4:21

Were you like, uh Um, no, I was into it because of the whole the the the uh debate both within the characters and within myself is like did he do it or not? And then regardless if he did do it or not, what do you do in that situation? So I I wanted some like final resolve of like he did it or he didn't, you know, but you never really got that. So it just kind of left me Which was intentional, yeah. It left me to edit like uh uh okay, I guess not.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

We're gonna discuss, or we're gonna definitively decide here.

unknown 4:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Did he do it or did he not do it? We will we will be the definitive ones to say. All right. Um I'm gonna do a little bit of of we I also want to get right into it. Um, box office numbers cost 20 million dollars to make, and they made 51.7 million dollars at a box office.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

So not a big hit, huh?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Um, I think for the type of movie it was it did it did pretty good. Um, because on top of that, it had five Oscar nominations and a whole bunch of other awards stuff. So it was very popular. It released uh December 12, 2008. Um and they were really trying to get in before the end of award season, so they could have been considered, which I don't know, maybe they should have held on to it because those Oscar nominations they didn't win any. Um no, well, yeah, they didn't. So Meryl Streep was nominated for Best Actress, Philip Seymour Hoffman, best act best supporting actor, Amy Adams and Viola Davis were both nominated for best supporting actress, and then they were also the movie was also nominated for best adapted screenplay. So in looking at 2008, because I'm like, well, who did Meryl Streep lose to? You know, that was my next question. Um she lost to Kate Winslet and The Reader. Do you know or have you ever heard of that movie?

SPEAKER_05 6:14

I I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

No, but you didn't, you never heard about doubt either, correct? I also did not know what that was.

SPEAKER_05 6:19

Well, maybe maybe I wasn't as sophisticated as I needed to be when we were 18 years old. I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

And then for I'm like, okay, well, who did Philip Seymour Hoffman lose to, right? And in 2008, um, that's when the Dark Knight came out. Well, the year before 2007. So he lost to uh Heath Ledger for the Joker. Which that's what I said when I when I saw that, I said, Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 6:43

You deserve that one for that role for sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

And those ladies lost for the best supporting actors, they lost to Penelope Cruz and Vicky Christina Barcelona.

SPEAKER_05 6:56

I don't know that one either.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Anywho, so let's let's let's just dive right in.

The Opening Sermon On Doubt

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Let's just dive right in.

SPEAKER_05 7:01

All right, sir.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

So the movie starts off with Philip Seymour Hoffman, who plays Father Flynn, giving a sermon about doubt. That sermon essentially gives the thesis statement of the entire movie. You know, it just talks about um experiencing doubt and um how doubt can bind you, you know, as as a community doesn't have to isolate or separate you because we all experience doubt in our lives. And um, I thought it was a good statement, it's a good way to start the movie. I apparently this is how the play starts off um with this. So it's a 10-act play as opposed to like a more traditional five-act play.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Um, I do not have a lot of play play references or information. That's probably about it. But this does start off the play, starts off the movie. How do you think about this for a start to the movie?

SPEAKER_05 7:57

I liked it um because I didn't know what the movie was about. I did zero research, so I didn't even look up like what the plot's about. I just watched it. So I'm really flying blind of like, okay, where are we going with this? So I was so he caught me, he kept me engaged of like, okay, someone is doubting something. Okay, okay, is that and then I think Meryl Streep also said it uh when she was uh essentially terrorizing the other nuns at dinner, saying, Is it doubt with himself? Is it doubt with someone else? Yeah. So I was also those questions of like, okay, well, where is this coming coming from? Like, what has happened here that has caused him to because you me mostly or usually um when pastors or priests take their sermon, they're taking it from the real world of something happening.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:43

So I was just I I I bought in from his from his first sermon. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah, so yeah. Um one of the main takeaways from that was that he said doubt can be a bond as powerful and sustaining a certainty. When you are lost, you're not alone. A certainty does come back later, and that's another through line throughout the whole movie, right? It's like being certain of something regardless of the information or the lack thereof, just being certain to your core about something, right? So I did think that was a beautiful way, a great way to start the movie off. It sets a tone right away. Um, it was a little weird that the I don't know what I was expecting because like the the congregation just kind of sat there when he finished. I was a yeesh, tough crowd. Like that's like a powerful sermon, and it kind of was just like, alright, cool. That's all right. The movie's starting, you know.

SPEAKER_05 9:37

So No, I did like the line H said about um what you you just said, um you're not a When you're a lost, you're not alone. When you're lost, you're not alone. I did like that.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

I was like, okay, yeah. There's a lot of bars in this in this um I have a lot of quotes written down here. There's there's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Also for our listeners, I think it's gonna be interesting because I saw this movie one time, 18 years ago, it made a huge impact on me. And um I loved it then, and I still love it now, actually. But I do I have a couple places in my notes where 18-year-old me and 35-year-old me have different interpretations as to what happened. So we'll be able to get your interpretations of first-hand viewer, a younger version of myself interpretation, and then how I feel about the movie now. So we can see how that overlaps and differs as we discuss. But yeah, so Father Flynn uh comes in as this kind pastor, you know, and he's very kind, very charming.

SPEAKER_05 10:39

Very kind of the people.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

100%. And I was I was gonna say that like his whole thing is like bringing the Catholic Church into you know a new era, right? And not being stuck in our ways, and and um there's a funny scene. I say funny, but as funny as anything, as funny as anything in this movie gets, but when he he has a meeting with Sister James and Sister Aloysius, and they offer him tea, and um he asks for sugar, and sister Aloysius is like, oh, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

Is that a bad thing? Is that a is that a sin or something? Like she reacted very aggressively.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Not only her though, when she asked Sister James, would you like sugar? She was like, Never. Yeah, she did say never. I did have that note, like absolutely not.

SPEAKER_05 11:25

But there's nothing wrong with it. I'm like, is there something wrong with sugar?

SPEAKER_00 11:31

I really resisted going down the rabbit hole of the Catholic Church. That's a big bite. Exactly. And I don't think uh I didn't suspect, and I did confirm because I did watch a uh interview with the director, he's not making a commentary on the Catholic Church. He's not interested in that. You know, uh he I heard a director say um that he doesn't because they ask him, like, you know, is this something that was going on in it? Because he went to a Catholic school, like, is this something that was going on, you know, whatever? And he said, Listen, like, I respect my audience, they're smart. Like, I'm not here to tell them what to think or how to feel about the Catholic Church. Um, they will make their own opinions based off of life and their own experiences and stuff. He's focusing on these relationships with these people, and he did want to try and communicate. It was important for him to set it in 1964, because that's like an era of change for the United States. Um, because uh uh Father Finn did mention last year when the president was assassinated with JFK. So we're in that's how we're in 1964. So we have the Vietnam War going on and all kinds of stuff. Um civil rights movement is is kicking off, you know, it's in full force. So it's a very time of change, you know. So he wanted to explore like kind of give his perspective of things and just explore that. The setting was as important at the time, um, was was as important as anything else.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

It's it's strange to me, even more, that you said that he I mean to me, since he took a shot at the Catholic Church, even though he's saying he didn't and he just kind of especially how it ended. Yeah, with how everything ended. Um But the like Sister James, who's Amy Adams character, is based off of a real nun.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

I saw that at the end. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

So, but when I kind of did a little bit of deep dive, the nun is real and she was but the the everything around it wasn't real. Correct. So just like, well, whose story are you telling? Like, why is the why is it based off on real person but a fictional part of a life that didn't exist?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

I know. I don't know. It's kind of weird. Yeah, I I didn't and nothing none nothing came up like that for me. Um and that interview I watched was a short one, and that question didn't come up either.

SPEAKER_05 13:58

Yeah, but all the characters, like um, like uh Meryl Streep's character, um is it Sister Eleosis?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Uh Aloysius.

SPEAKER_05 14:06

Aloysius, yeah. Eliosis today. Aloys, uh Father Flynn, like these aren't like people that they say, you know, actually they encountered. So it's just like, okay, then why is this setting? But you know, whatever. Yeah, okay. So I felt like a little bit when you you talked about it, so I'll just put my part on this the speech that he or the sermon that he talked about um um change and being more open. It does sound like he was trying to be like progressive, like we should be welcoming more people, but then it also feels like it was based on how you took the movie, it feels like it's uh like he was kind of pushing boundaries as well. Like maybe where we should start accepting some things that we weren't typically accepting in a school in a no, not only in a school, but in a church and in a school where your main there's a large group of people who are children and they don't they can't uh fight for themselves, fan for themselves. You know, you're supposed to quote unquote protect them as not quote unquote. You're supposed to protect them as adults, right? That's that's our job. Um it felt like he was ushering it felt more cynical than it was portrayed to me. Like he was trying to usher that it's okay that I'm you know alone along alone with these boys or girls, you know, whatever, and you know, we're on one-on-one conversations, and they're like, is it okay?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, like no, I don't think that's okay, but so when you said what did you what are you saying is more cynical? The his speech specifically or the movies portrayal of the Catholic Church?

SPEAKER_05 15:41

No, just his speech. His speech.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Okay, okay, okay, okay. That he was he had a cynical look at the outlook with the other Catholic traditions. Oh, okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 15:50

Yeah, I think he was trying to usher a new way, but this progressive way wasn't necessarily to for the betterment of good, but betterment of his um Oh, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Okay, okay, okay. That's very interesting.

SPEAKER_05 16:03

Like, like on surface, it's like, oh yeah, of course. But then they have another agenda. I think he was trying to feed this agenda over here.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

And agendas, that's another thing that's rampant within them in the movie. Um and we will we'll definitely get to more of that.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Okay.

Meet Sister Aloysius And Sister James

SPEAKER_00 16:19

That's a good point. So shortly thereafter, we are introduced to Sister Aloysius, played by Meryl, the great Meryl Street. And immediately, you know, she comes in, makes a presence. Like she's the stereotypical mean hard ass. Hard ass none, just like I was like, what the fuck? Yeah, you know. I was so mad. Oh, were you really?

SPEAKER_05 16:43

I was like, she was so aggressive.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

I was like, geez, very aggressive, but I mean, I thought it made sense. I mean, it makes time. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_05 16:52

I'm not, you know, I'm not, I don't think this isn't uh freaking um sister act. I don't think it's it's hardly done.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

That's a throwback. I have not thought about sister acting forever. I think it fit, but it was just so annoying. It was like it was a lot, and I loved it. I love every second of her her portrayal of her performance, and but she I I and I I can't remember how I felt about her when I was younger. I think I may have been more annoyed then and just been like, why is this lady such a hard ass? Uh but she definitely represents what the Catholic Church is and um is supposed to be, or that she thinks are uh of a bygone era, right? She's definitely rigid in her ways, yeah, very much so. And the movie asks us, like, is she rigid to a fault? Right? And um, you know, as someone who can be rigid, I can be very rigid, like I understand that. I I can understand that, and that rigidity, it it allows you to have a certain level of like confidence, like self-confidence, and just when you're operating in life. She has a strong sense of justice, right? Um, and what she believes is right and wrong. Um but then you know in life in general, not I'm not referring to this situation in this movie specifically, but in life in general, we all know that you can't live life that way, black and white, rigid. Like there's we all live in a gray area, yeah. And her reluctance to even embrace or even acknowledge the presence of a gray area is problematic for her as a character and as a person. Right?

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Next we have Amy Adams who plays Sister James, who is a younger nun, uh teacher. I got the sense she was newer to the school. Did you get that sense too? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:48

She was definitely newer to like the habit.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Okay, yeah, that's possible too.

SPEAKER_05 18:54

Um she doesn't seem like she was a nun for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

She's definitely way more naive and more idealistic, and like, well, this is the way things should be, and believe the best in everyone. Yeah, she must believe in good. Absolutely. 100%. Absolutely. So she believes in in Father Flynn, even though like she's bothered by she's not 100% certain. And whenever he gives an explanation, I'm not gonna say excuse, an explanation, she's like, okay, we're good, we got it, you know. And then even when she's dealing with Sister Aloysius, you know, she she tries to believe in her cause and believe that Sister Aloysius is doing this for the good of the of the students, you know. And um, she does challenge her um later on in the movie, but she's definitely like a good um reference point for the audience, right? We get to ask that she's asking the questions like we would kind of be asking, or we're just like because she's confused every step of the way, you know. Um, and just hoping that the worst is not what's happening, right?

SPEAKER_05 19:53

Right. It's an innocent mistake and innocent explanations or whatever. Like, I think that you know, throughout the movie, you see her struggle for sure. She knows something isn't right, or she wouldn't have said anything in the first place, right? But then obviously you had the power balance between two higher people in the in the church, um, with Meryl Street being the principal and having significant experience. I guess I don't know if she's the head nun, I guess so. I don't know what they call that person. What do they call them?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Abbus or Mother Superior.

SPEAKER_05 20:20

Mother Superior, thank you. Your mother superior, and then you have the the pastor who's leading the church. So two of the highest people on a church level kind of going at it, and you're in the middle. So you're just like, uh, I don't know. Is he right? Is he wrong?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah. And it it is at that dinner where um Aloysius, Sister Aloyishus, you know, says to other nuns, like, you guys catch that sermon earlier, you know, like what?

SPEAKER_05 20:46

That bothered me.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Does it re did it really?

SPEAKER_05 20:48

It bothered me.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Why?

SPEAKER_05 20:49

It bothered me because she was like, She's a no-nonsen person, right? She's straight up. But this whole like trying to hint at without saying it directly, and I was just like, why not just come out and say what you're saying? And even when the nuns were like, Oh, are you trying to say this? And she's like, Oh, well, I didn't ask for a guessing game, did I? I was like, That was hilarious. I thought that was funny. No, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

So, would you you want to just come out and say, hey, I think Father Finn is touching this? She has no proof. She's not able to see it.

SPEAKER_05 21:16

She never had proof, and she was running with the certainty that it was happening.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

She never had proof, but she gained more certainty as she investigated. At this point in time, there was an inkling, right? And she was just testing the water.

SPEAKER_05 21:28

You think it was too early to be able to do it?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

I think it was too early for her to outright say it. I think I think she was testing the waters to see did anyone else catch an inkling like I did, and if there was an opportunity for them to say something.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

I don't think they would have, even if they did.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

I think they would have to her. You just say she's mother superior.

SPEAKER_05 21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

They would confide in her. No one else, but they would confide in her. I believe so.

SPEAKER_05 21:49

Cause they were like Well, no, she would she she turned out to be like caring of them.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

She but I think she always was she's so I think she is a she's a hard ass, obviously, right? Um she expects she has standards, she expects things a certain way, right? There's a scene when when when Sister James Umps at Sister Aloyshaus and is like, you know, you have this place run like a prison and this, that, and the other. And I don't think it's a problem that he likes sugar in his tea and da-da-da. And um she says, sit down, you know? And um she says to her, I can't remember the exact word in, but she she asked her, like, do you think this is run like a prison? And she said, Well, I mean, the kids do seem happy, but you know, it's it's just there's too much like that fear, and like it it could be a little lighter, you know. She's like, You're so mean all the time. And she was like, That's the way it has to be. And and that was it. And I wish they had dived into that more. So my interpretation is that because it doesn't seem like all the nuns are like that, like Sister Aloyshis are. I think they're all like strict, but Sister Aloyshus is different. It's like you don't. I think I don't know, I think part of me, and I'm not saying this is right, but I think part of her is seeing this as she has to maintain that rule of order, and with her being that much of a hard ass, she can also give like a common enemy kind of to all the students, and is out it opens up for a sister James to go in and be more caring and give the kid someone to trust in and confide in or whatever, because the big bad bully. She has a bunch of other shit going on, like she's not able to deal with each kid on an individual level, but you want your teachers to be able to do that, or your other nuns. So when she said that's the way it has to be, I just took it to mean that. I don't know if that's what it was, but that's how I interpreted it for the movie.

SPEAKER_05 23:38

I can eat that. I can I can eat that. That's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

So so yeah, so I just don't think she I didn't she had enough evidence to or anything to say anything. She just wanted to see, and then she also wanted to just put them, have their antennas up in case they saw something, which was fruitful. It paid off because Sister James came to her like a little while later and said, So about what you said the other day, you know?

SPEAKER_05 24:02

Oh crap. I'm mixing it up. Oh so this scene with the dinner was before Sister James came to her about um yeah, what's her name? Donald.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Donald, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:10

Donald Miller.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:11

Oh crap. I think I I thought it was after.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Okay, no, it was it was before.

SPEAKER_05 24:15

Oh, so this is from the this is from her initial scene when she saw the boy Blonde Jimmy pull away pull away from her.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Okay. Yeah, that's all she has.

SPEAKER_05 24:23

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

That inkling. She's like, Okay. Yeah, yeah. Now I'm good. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:28

I thought I I guess I missed it out. I I literally thought it was after Sister James had come forward and said, Yeah, yeah. Hey, this is happening. I was like, why you can tell everybody else that's not? Yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

The only reason Sister James came to her is because of the dinner. Okay, I'm tracking.

SPEAKER_05 24:39

I feel okay. Uh sorry about that barrel street. That's all.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, so you already talked about the priest. They were like smoking and stuff at that dinner they had. It was they were wild in Monsignor and everything. I was like, damn. All they were missing was some freaking women from the brothel. My gosh. Definitely. Um so because after that, after this is when Sister James, so Donald now has been called from the class to go see Father Flynn in the rectory,

Donald Miller And The First Accusation

SPEAKER_00 25:13

yeah. In the rectory, and he comes back, he's upset, she smells alcohol on his breath. She also witnesses Father Flynn put a shirt into Donald's locker, which I was like, I didn't know what that was at first. Oh, I knew it was a shirt, I just didn't know why or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 25:30

I didn't I thought it was a cloth. Okay, okay, okay. I don't know what it was.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

I was just like, no lock in the locker is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 25:36

I mean, yeah, I assume people don't steal it.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

It's a catholic, yeah, it's cool or whatever. Um this is an inside incident that makes Sister James go to Aloysius, and um Aloysius like immediately takes a bit. She's like, This is what I've been waiting for. Like something a little more concrete to go after this guy. And there's a quote where she says, Um, because Sister James, being optimistic and naive, is like, well, maybe it's nothing. And Aloishus says, Then why do you look like you've seen the devil? After this, this is what leads us to a meeting between the three. Uh this movie is just chock full of great scenes. Uh, but yes, this is definitely the first like heavy scene where we have Aloysius, um, James, and Father Flynn all in the same. And first of all, you see the the power dynamics you were talking about, right? Father Flynn comes in, immediately sits at Aloysius' desk.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Right. Immediately.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

I was like, damn, dude.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Rude.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

So, like, there's like this like psychological war going on with the war of the words as well, right? Because there's the whole like she opens the blinds on her. I know like that's the light comes in, like the light on you. I know, trying to expose him, and then he goes and he shuts the you know, closed the blinds or whatever. Um, it's just so there's all this extra stuff happening in the background while the conversation in the foreground. And now we already talked about the the sugar and their reaction to the sugar. He took three cubes of sugar in his tea, and uh it just my takeaway from that whole conversation. I put Sister Aloysius is convinced that Father Flynn is a liar. Just convinced, already convinced. And you know, it starts off with them being coy as well, like, oh, well, first they start talking about a pageant, the Christmas pageant.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

That was the that was the initial war there. Correct. Yeah, we should change things up. Yeah, we should do Frosty's the snowman.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

He's like, uh, that's a pagan song about witchcraft.

SPEAKER_05 27:47

Very upset. You put a magic hat on, he comes alive. We're not doing that.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

This is true. She's like, if it was a more somber song, like it would expose all the darkness in it. I was like, damn, lady.

SPEAKER_05 27:58

She didn't like Frosty Snowman at all.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

So he was like, okay, not Frosty. Can we do something else? Like he said, that's not the point. The point isn't like what song specifically, the point is, can we do a secular song? Right? Which again, this is Father Flynn being like, we need to be more appealing, right? We have to we have to meet people where they're at. And dude, this is something we all know. This is what churches, especially modern churches or the historical churches, deal with today, where it's like, are you meeting your congregation where they're at?

SPEAKER_05 28:24

Yeah, they have like trap music church songs now.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

You like, so it's like, yeah, man, like it's Christmas time. They're there saying jingle bells and and we're all the red nose rain there, and we're over here like the Holly and the Ivy. I don't know how that song goes.

SPEAKER_05 28:39

Yeah, you didn't. That's not it.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Is that how that goes?

SPEAKER_05 28:43

No, you're throwing me off. I don't know. Anyway, you could have just send the first Noel and it's moved on.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

No thanks. Anyway, yeah, they're like, come on, let's mix it up, right? So she's like, Yeah, I guess it's beginning to write Christmas. I guess that'll do, you know?

SPEAKER_05 29:02

And then uh very wholesome.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Her segue was very good, masterful, where she said, you know, we have to be particularly careful with Donald, you know, and he's like, Oh, why? And she's like, Well, we gotta make sure we don't like hide him in the background or put him in the forefront with too much, you know. And Father Flynn's response was like he should be treated like all the other children, which I was like, that's what she just said. That was what she just said. Yeah, because you know, being black, a lot of people like to they think like, oh, well, we need to highlight our black students or whatever. It's like, no, you're putting a target at them, just have them fucking fit in with everyone else. Do not because even like um, what am I trying to say? Even highlighting them, you're still otherizing them, right? So, but anyway, he foolishly says, Oh, well, they should be treated the same, and she's like, But you're giving him special treatment, yeah, and now the trap is set, right? And Father Flynn is like, what's happening here? What are we talking about? And we see him slowly trying to like deduce what's going on, and he's like, Alright, you guys didn't call me after this pageant, so what the hell is up? And they come out and ask it, like, we we saw you, you know, with the boy, he seemed pretty upset. We talked about the alcohol, the wine and his breath, and all this stuff. And you know, they kind of did dig, they dig, they dig, and finally, Father Flynn is like, Yeah, he drank some community wine. I was trying to keep it a secret so he didn't get kicked off as an alter boy. And Sister James was like, awesome. I mean, that sucks for him, but great. It's not what the worst case scenario is just this.

SPEAKER_05 30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Problem solved.

SPEAKER_05 30:41

Kids drink, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

You know, let's call his parents up, kick him off the thing, and let's move on with our lives. And Aloys just did not believe him.

SPEAKER_05 30:52

She did not.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

How did you feel about the scene?

SPEAKER_05 30:54

It's just anxiety at its peak, really. This whole scene. Um, because as an audience member, the only person who doesn't know what's going on at first is Father Flynn. Everybody else is aware of what you know, what they're essentially accusing him of, kind of, without saying it. They still didn't really like say exactly. It was just, you know, inappropriate relationship. Correct, yeah, yeah. What is that? Um, but either way, you could feel it. So you could feel everything tightening. You I like the way she set the traps, the way she segued. Um, but nobody's backing down, and that's so powerful between you two, especially at this time with these women with nuns. I just thought it was just anxiety and losing. I was like teethering. Is he is he gonna say it? Is he gonna not? I mean, personally, you know, I'm not in this situation, but if I was, you you gotta lie with you gotta die with a lie. So I don't know what are you talking about? Like they have to catch me red-handed at this point. Like this, it's yours, it's yours to lose, essentially. Because they don't have they still don't have evidence. Yeah, you know, just have like one teacher who and the even the explanation of what they said he did, he put his he came back into class and put his head down.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, well, the whole thing was that he was in the class, he was fine, he left, came back, and now he's upset. So yeah, I it's in the way the way she worded it that he put his head down. It was just like so, yeah. Maybe we were boring, right? Like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_05 32:14

But then she added, Oh, well, he had uh, oh, okay. That adds a little more to it, but yeah, at this point you still don't know really what's going on. Um, so just anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. I this is definitely where I'm the most into the scene, into the movie. Um, and then you have this weird phone call thing where the phone is just ringing, no one's answering it. It's just uh first of all, first of all, how long does the phone ring? Like, Jesus. It felt like it was ringing for 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

I feel like it rang for a realistic amount of time, but it was so it definitely added to the tension and anxiety you were talking about. Because even Sister James, Sister James was like, Should I get that? She's like, No. All right, my bad.

SPEAKER_05 32:57

Sister James is like the naive, really, like a naive child right there with the two with two parents arguing or something like that. Um, because she she's trying to like, oh, I don't know what to do, so let me help you. Let me let me let me answer the phone. Do you need some more tea? Like, after like No.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

I was like, read the room. Read the room, honey.

SPEAKER_05 33:17

That's not read the room. We do not need tea at this moment. She's trying to solve it. Not just the kids doing that moment, you know, when their parents and stuff are like, like, oh, I don't, you know, you you might you want me to sweep you up? You want me to do this? You want me to go? Like, well, like, you know, and you know, it's like this is not you're fighting right now. Sweet over it. Back up, back up.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

You're literally just here as we found out later, because we need a third party person. When I guess when a male and a female um are in the same room, you know, and that's why she was also, I mean, obviously because she was the one that brought she was a witness, yes. But in addition to that, outside of that witness stuff, it's like, all right, you stated what you witnessed.

SPEAKER_05 33:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Just sit in corner, yeah, be quiet. The adults are talking.

SPEAKER_05 33:57

Like, I like Amy Adams innocence. But I also but also she didn't help the story.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Like, no, I I don't think she was supposed to. How could she? I don't, I'm not saying like Oh, when you say don't help the story, what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_05 34:12

I'm saying like other than bringing it forward, other than that, like I don't know. I'm struggling with her character. Like I wish there was like someone older who could have like helped. Um, but she was just so naive and so young, it was just like, all right.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah, I I I think I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

That's just me wishful thinking of like I want a resolution and I don't get one. So I'm trying to like pull, like, oh well, who could have made it better? Who could have done this?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

I've had 16 years to grapple with the fact that there was no resolution. And I knew that, and I didn't tell you, but I knew there was not gonna be one.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

Yeah, I think she did fine, but there's a part of me of like, okay, maybe maybe the second person in command would have helped her like better because they've been around for a while, and this is probably not an isolated incident, and maybe they're like they decide as a group, like, all right, we're tired of these priests.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yeah, she never pulled in any of the other nuns or anything, correct?

SPEAKER_05 34:54

Yeah, we're tired of these priests going from school to school, from church to church, and doing this to herself. And and other, you know, uh members of the church. Um, so like we're gonna do something about it.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

I I think though, having Amy Adams so kind of like clueless and not really given um too much to impact anything, it really strengthens Meryl Streep's performance because it makes her certainty and rigidity just stand out even more, which is what they wanted to focus on. Yeah. But I understand what you're saying. I do like that she did a great job portraying that innocence in Sister James.

SPEAKER_05 35:30

She always does, I suppose she always looked lost. Yeah, I swear to God. But but it worked in this instance, and um and yeah, Meryl Streep absolutely killed it. Like she she she absolutely I mean, it's Meryl Streep. I don't expect anything less from her, but absolutely just from the beginning to the time he walks out the door, you're just waiting for her to say something next. So, you know, yeah, killer scene.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Absolutely absolutely. So after

Gossip Sermon And Playing The Witness

SPEAKER_00 35:55

that, uh the next scene of note is when we have Sister Jim's and Father Flynn have a one-on-one moment. They were outside, they're outside, correct, on a bench. Yes. Well, no, I skipped something huge.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Because after this, if you remember, while he was in that meeting with the three of the three of them were in a meeting, he started writing something. She's like, What are you doing? And he's like, Oh, I'm just taking notes. Like, you know, a sermon just came to me and um she's like, Oh, about what? And he said, on intolerance. And um when he was on his way out, she was like, I have some writing to do. And she was like, Yeah, intolerance. And he's like, Yes. You know, like so now it's like, all right, they don't like each other. Like, this is it's out there. Yeah. And homeboy went to mass the next day or next week or the weekend or whatever, and delivered a scathing sermon about gossip. I did. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 36:54

I was like, this gossip sermon was a thinly veiled threat to the two of them. Like it was barely, he barely hit it. He just ended it. I was like, what the f like what is the lesson here?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

No, I I thought it was a good analogy.

SPEAKER_05 37:08

Like it didn't just end because he got to the end of the story of like, well, you can't pick up the feathers because they're all flying and they travel and that's gossip. Once you let it out, you can't pick up the feature.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

So what what was missing? What more did you want him to do?

SPEAKER_05 37:20

Something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Like soften it and then be like, all right, we all love each other, something, something, something. Something. It was it ended in a dark tone. It ended in a dark tone.

SPEAKER_05 37:29

I don't know if it was abrupt, but it was just okay if I'm in if I'm in church, yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

If I'm in church, my pastor gives that sermon and then just ends with an analogy. Like, oh Jesus Christ, who the fuck pissed off the pastor, guys?

SPEAKER_05 37:40

Yeah, so you're right. Where's the other half of that? Okay, you know, blah blah blah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

He didn't go on to say, you know, so let's all remember this story and take it into our lives and be kind to each other. You're right.

SPEAKER_05 37:52

Helped, but he ended it. Like, yeah, you can't pick up those feathers. So let's pray.

SPEAKER_04 37:56

I'm like, oh okay. I guess I guess I did something wrong.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Oh, it's tough. So of course, Sister James now is shook sitting on this bench out in the cold by herself, you know. And he like walks over and he's like, he's like, Hey, yo, yo, you praying? I'm sorry about disturbing. He's like, She's like, No, just like thinking about my life essentially, you know. And um, they have a conversation. He she did reference the sermon, was like, was that about me? Was that about an assignment? He's like, What do you think? You know, like, come on, you guys ganged up on me, cornered me in their office. Like, that wasn't cool. Because he did say when he left the meeting, I don't like how you handle this. He did, you know, to to Aloysius, right? So the that meeting though, that interaction with them is not a tense one at all, though, right? Because we see Father Flynn and his Karen charismatic self, and he, you know, he he tries to comfort Sister James, and Sister James just revealed that she has a sick brother, which will help explain why she disappears from the movie. Yeah, what the fuck was that? Like the last act or whatever. We didn't need her anymore. Like you said, she wasn't doing anything. Bless you. You're right, you're right. My bad.

SPEAKER_05 39:06

Go help your butter, go have your butter. You're right, you're right.

unknown 39:09

You're right.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

So uh we have a conversation, and cynical me. My only note about that scene was, you know, it is this him being sincere or is him is this him working her? Working her. Yeah, he's working her. Because he knows she's she's an easy mark. She wants to believe the best. And before he leaves, or she leaves, she says, I don't believe it. You know, I believe you. He's like, Thank you. You know, and and that was my that's my only real takeaway from that scene. You got anything else? That was Nope, that was it.

SPEAKER_05 39:38

That was that was I was like we still, I'm sure we'll talk about debate of whether or not he did it or not. I mean, that's a that might be a different conversation, but that's almost like like textbook prediction. That's what you do, 100%. That's 100% what you do. Yeah. Like with a child or somebody who's naive, like you, you all you go that route. And he did it like perfectly. And he got exactly what he wanted, yeah. Which is her to say, Oh, I believe you. And now, like only the only witness, quote unquote, which is her, is the one who's saying, Oh, that didn't happen. So when she does, if she does, take it to whoever higher up. And then now you're like, Oh, remember? Oh, actually, no, I don't remember. Now you look now, you look stupid, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

And I mean, also, too, like like a feather in the wind, if she goes around telling people, yeah, no, like I don't think past the like that she could be that first feather, that you know, voice piece that can help.

SPEAKER_05 40:29

Yeah, gossip can help and her.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Exactly, right? So that's him also weaponizing his own sermon, right? In his favor.

Viola Davis And The Mother’s Dilemma

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yeah. So Viola Davis is playing. We haven't mentioned her because she literally is in these 12 minutes of the movie, and then like five seconds later at the end, right? And she plays Mrs. Miller, she is Donald's mother, the boy in question. And I'm very curious as to why you say like this scene didn't move you. That's what you said right at the beginning. I didn't say it didn't move. What did you say?

SPEAKER_05 41:01

You said it was it Oscar worthy.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Okay, you don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 41:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

So the just gathering my thoughts. Um Sister Aloysius calls for a meeting with Mrs. Miller, and she comes in and um at the same time, Sister James is really tense because I guess because of the interaction she had with Merrill Street, sorry, with Sister Aloysius earlier. So she's in a class, being more of a hard ass, she kicks out that same Jimmy boy that's been kinda he's been a little troublemaker in the school. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

So he happens to get sent to the office at the same time Mrs. Miller gets there, and um Aloysius is like, Who why are you here? He said, Oh, I was in class talking. She was like, Well, go back and shut up. Sends him on his way. But of course, Pastor Father Flynn is passing by and he catches that Mrs. Miller's in a meeting with, you know.

SPEAKER_05 42:09

So Maybe before we go into there, I just wanted to Okay, so Jimmy, name is Jimmy, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 42:15

Jimmy, yeah, like he said he was a traumaker, right? He always seems to be like just the class clown guy, which you know, it happens. He goes to the principal office pretty often. He's the guy that everybody knows. Cool. I was wondering, I know that she was being a little harder because, you know, all the stress of what's happening. Okay. But when he came back from the principal's office, like what was that attitude about?

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Whose attitude? Jimmy's attitude? I'm gonna tell you. I think I'm gonna talk about it at the end. I have a note about it in the final scene.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:44

So I'll wait for you.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Good. So they're having this conversation, and you know, Mrs. Miller's like, I don't have a lot of time. And she's like, Well do you mind if I walk with you? You know, so they they walk into her job, and the conversation that started in the school was, you know, um, do you know about your you know why your son got sent home? Oh, he was drinking the wine. So, what did he tell you about that? And he's just you know, he drank this wine, his father beat him, beat the hell out of him essentially for that.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

So now they go on this walk and listen Viola Davis played this role so well. Like the anxiety that she was showing that this mother was going through, and that's like the stress of a woman that's trying to keep her life together. Like that she did so much acting, uh communicated so much in her body language alone, you know? And you know, with them outside of school grounds, Sis Aloyshis just comes out and says, like, I think Father Flynn is having an Inappropriate relationship with your son. Mrs. Miller said that, well, he's paying attention. He's treating my boy good. And I do appreciate that. And I was just Aloisha says, like, I think it's inappropriate. She's like, Well, I don't know. Do you know that? Do you have any proof of that? She said, No, I don't. She said, Okay, so how can you know something that you have no that you don't know? You know? And the line where Mel Streep says to fella that listen, like this man has your boy, you know, like in his clutches. And she says, let him have him then. I'm sorry, I broke out in goosebumps. 100%. Like I was, I was stuck, I had to stop the the movie. You know? And the interaction ends with her saying, Sister, I don't know if we're on the same side. I'll be standing with my son with those. I'll be standing with my son with those who are good to my son. I hope to see you there. And her whole thing is that she doesn't she ends up talking about the nature of the boy. She shifts the conversation. And it's like, because what if what if he's into these at this attention? And Ala Wish is like, what are we talking about here now? You've completely pulled the rug from me because she thought she had everything figured out. And essentially it's revealed that, well, Donald is gay and having a hard time with that. He was bullied in his previous school, which is why he's gone to his Catholic school. And not only is he bullied at a school, he's he's being picked out of this school too. And his father beats the hell him out of it for him being gay. The only person being good to him is Father Flynn. And when we you mention about intentions and motives and everything, and literally Mrs. Miller says that yeah, he's good to him. Does he have ulterior motives? Maybe. But am I supposed to ask that? Does it matter why he's being good to him, or that he's being good to him? And the look of disgust and shock on Sister Aloysh's face, it was a very powerful, powerful scene. Um, so that's why I really like the performance from both ladies. I like how Viola Davis came in here, had literally one scene, 12 Minutes to Cook. I thought she did. Excellent. What were your thoughts on the scene?

SPEAKER_05 46:16

Awesome. I love Viola Davis. Okay, I just want you to before you go tell people. Um, you know, I like the way you set it up. You did a great job. I think that she, you know, she's you know, like you said, this is the 60s. Um civil war. Civil war, he um civil rights. Civil rights, thank you. Civil rights is just starting to kick off. Um there this was Donald was the first black person. You know, Negro, which I hate, but whatever it is, what it is. You know, it's the time. It is what it is. So, you know, this is the first Negro in the school, so this possibly might be, you know, the the first time they're integrated or whatever. Yes. Um, not possibly it is, because this is the first first student here, so um and I think that puts us in this mindset that you know and I I I I don't want to put other people's struggles uh against each other. I don't want to pit it, but it it all it is almost that, and I think that's where VL is coming from. Like, we're playing chess and you're playing checkers, like and then you hinted at it, like, you know, why should I worry about why he's being treated good? Like, because you have so much other things going on at this time, like though he might be being taken advantage of, regardless of if Donald is gay or not, he's still a child, a 12-year-old at that time. So he you know, it doesn't matter, you know, he quote unquote asked for it, won it, it does not matter, it's not right, period. Right? So, but at the same time, this extra attention from um um Father Flynn is protecting him, right? Yeah, it wasn't until Father Flynn started kind of avoiding him that some of the other boys started like knocking his books down and like kind of bumping into him in the hallway and stuff like he was an altar boy, and that's probably like a pretty high up position to be an altar boy, um, besides the rampant other issues. But you know, as you just say, like all of you know, they that's it that's important, especially in the Catholic um experience. Even for us, like, you know, I love being an altar.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Um Lutheran, yeah. Yes, thank you. I almost said altar boy.

SPEAKER_05 48:31

That's not right. But same shit, right? Yeah, there's no difference. Um, but yeah, you feel important. You feel like, oh, I'm I'm part of the team, right? So uh it's a higher position, and he got it, and he's new to the school, new to the maybe new to the neighborhood. Um, so for him to get that, it's probably like, hmm, how'd he get that? Um so there had to be some jealousy, but for whatever reason, because of Father Lip Flynn's uh affliction or attention to him, he was being protected. Um so that must it must have been heartbreaking, right? To hear that your son is being taken advantage of, but also good.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

He's happy.

SPEAKER_05 49:13

Is it good for him?

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Like, I mean happy, he feels included in some place.

SPEAKER_05 49:17

Like yeah, so you have a whole and whole entire other moral argument happening on the back end here. Yeah. Like she's just focused on the abuse or whatever's happening there, but she's focused on like, but what about outside of these gates? Even inside the walls, like what about that?

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Also, to 1964.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Um, like where we're just talking about civil rights for minorities, particularly African Americans, right? Like, gay rights isn't even on the fucking radar at this point, is it? I mean, or it's just starting, right? But I'm saying, like, as far as like embracing it, understanding it, and all that stuff, we're we're so far away from that, right? So at that point in time, because remember, hers thing was what if he wants that attention? It's like, well, he's gay, so it doesn't matter, you know. But like you said it does, but yeah, he's a child, it matters. Yeah, if if it was a woman teacher doing it, it's still a problem. Yeah, is a child, you know. Um, and she kept saying this thing, well, just till June. Just till June.

SPEAKER_05 50:17

Yeah, just till you know, just so he could get into a good school. Then again, you get to that moral thing. Like, is one bad or evil act okay to then set you up for the rest of your life?

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Like, really, you know, the the the cost of that, like fuck, no. I don't think that justifies it at all. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 50:35

I don't think that's just all she knows is she wants the best for her son long term. Correct. And and this good school is gonna get into a good high school, which gets me into a good college.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

She's also in an abusive relationship. Yeah, you don't tell my husband no to nothing.

SPEAKER_05 50:47

Yeah, because he might be trying to stop, but yeah, he beat her ass too.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

I'm sure she's getting blows too, man. Like, let's be honest. Like the the way she just described the rage of this guy and how he treats his son, I'm sure she gets, or she at least used to, or she gets, you know, um uh uh um abused as well. So it it's under surface, it's easy to side with Alo Wishers and be like, what kind of mother are you?

SPEAKER_05 51:11

Yes, you know I was first, I I paused. I was like, first of all, who the hell are you? You don't have a child. Relax.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Nah.

SPEAKER_05 51:18

Nah, you don't have a child, relax. Takes care of children for a living. She does, she does, she does.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

She came to a mother, I would have said the same thing she said. I'm so sorry. I would have said the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Nah.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Um, I would have been short-sighted in my acquisition, you know? But she from Aloysius' point of view, I just came to you. I said, I think your child's been molested. And you said, So what? Like, what the fuck? What kind of mother are you? You know, like I so I get why Aloysius reacted that way, but as you just unpack, it's such a layered thing. It's not just a good mom, bad mom type of thing. It's like you're fighting for your life, for your son's life, more importantly.

SPEAKER_05 51:57

Okay, I pull him out of school, and then ready goes back to a different school.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

They were beating the hell out of him. She said they were beating him up in the other school. Yeah. So she's like, someone else might kill him, you know. So it's like, okay, exactly. Is the psychological and emotional trauma that he's made suffer worth the physical trauma and emotional and psychological. If you can't beat up all of it, that would fuck your emotional and psychological as well. But at physical trauma on top of that, yeah, what is the it's like a lesser to evils type of things where she's the devil, you know, right? Exactly. And she knows that what did she say? This is a good educated man that's been kind to my son, someone he can look up to. Yeah. It's just till June. Yeah. And at this point in time, we're we're like December-ish, right? I don't know if it's before, it's before after the play, but we're in the fall, early winter area, right? She's like, just till June.

SPEAKER_05 52:49

Six months of hell.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Whew.

SPEAKER_05 52:51

So And then you know, she even hints at it herself, you know, I know about it more than you could ever know. Like it sounds like, you know, she might have been abused herself. You know, again, this is 60s, her young black woman, young black men being uh taken advantage of in a multitude of ways. So my problem with this scene, the great as it is, tell me, tell me, yeah. The great as it is, is just they introduced another element and then we didn't do anything with it.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

You mean with the homosexuality stuff?

SPEAKER_05 53:16

Homosexuality stuff plus race stuff plus the family dynamic stuff.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it wasn't about that. I know it was about that. I mean, so the race stuff the race stuff was always an underlying thing because they did reference the first Negro in the school thing. Yeah. And they set the stage in 1964. So that was I was already implied in there. Uh-huh. Um, but I hear what you're saying, it just becomes a different story, though. Exactly. Yeah, but so what you're saying though is to Mrs. Miller's point, right? Which is like, like, what do you really what fight are you really fighting here? You know what I'm saying? Like, she that's what she accused of Aloyshis as like because like you're saying, like, I'm dealing with domestic abuse, I'm dealing with women's rights, I'm dealing with um minority rights, I'm dealing with um my son's safety and him on gay rights.

SPEAKER_05 54:08

Man could just have a little bit of a list when they're like, Are you gay? Like, you never know. Like she's a 12-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but so that's five things we just rattled off. And all you care about is this. And she's like, Okay, so if he's a problem, then go deal with him. She did. She's like, Why are you calling me into the principal's office to talk about my son? My son is a victim here. We are victims here. You go sort it out. Leave me, leave my son out of it. You know, 100%. And I agree. Yeah, and she was right for that.

SPEAKER_05 54:38

But again, it was, you know, you're just you're just like, shit. Let's serve two evils, man.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

That's tough.

SPEAKER_05 54:46

That is a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

So this takes us to an 11-minute scene with two Titans.

The Showdown Over Proof And Certainty

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Two other Titans, but two Titans, Meryl Streep and Philip Seymour Hoffman. And this scene starts off with him coming to her office, and she's like, Oh, we need like a third-party media. He's like, Essentially, he's like, Fuck that. We are talking right now. Why was Mrs. Miller here? And she's like, Oh, just talking about her son, you know, just like like why could he she have been here? And he's so angry, so angry. There's so much rage in this scene. And but we go through a gamut of emotions, and I don't want I don't want to talk about a scene beat by beat, right? Um I'm gonna talk about how I interpreted this scene when I was 18 and how I interpret it now. When I was younger, I interpreted the scene as that Flynn was upset because he was being uh accused of something just so vile. That this woman's come to him accusing him of something. I thought that's what that rage was from. Upon watching it this time around, I the way I read it is that he's angry because he wants to know, like, what the fuck does she have on me? Like what it's not about whether or not I did it or not, it's like what the fuck does she know? You know, like it's just he's just trying to find out what do you know? How did you catch me? Like, where's your evidence? And I typed that scene before um the part when he said like he asked her like again, like what like what is it? Like what what is it? Because he said, dude, you just you just don't like me. You just you know, you targeted me. And she's like, Yeah, yep, all of that. So he's like, So what the fuck? And she said, I saw you grab Jimmy's uh hand and he pulled away from you. And it was almost like a sigh of relief from Father Flynn. He's like, That's it? You ain't got shit. And he like sits down, he starts writing again. He's like, Alright, in case I need to get you up uh the fuck out of here, I need to write down what you're saying, and he's kind of regains control of the conversation it was seeing because he's like, She ain't got shit, she's just over here going on, going on. Um you know, he's he says, You haven't the slightest proof of anything, and she says, But I have my certainty, and I'm armed, and armed with that, I like I'll get to the bottom of this. And that certainty thing what came up earlier in the previous sermon. She's like, I am certain. This is what I'm using, you know. And I I don't I don't want to suck about the oxygen here, but like we can because there's more in this, but just how this dialogue begins, like where are you at? And what do you think of those interpretations I said of him being angry, me, a younger me thinking he was angry because he was just appalled at the accusation versus him being angry that he's just trying to figure out what she has on him, or is there something else you interpreted?

SPEAKER_05 57:46

Um, no, so what I think about what you said about your 18-year-old versus your 36-year-old self is until you turn 36. Easy. Yeah. I just want to put that out there.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Okay. All right. Not yet. On my way. Not not there yet.

SPEAKER_05 58:02

That's literally double. That's that's double. That's two times of life lived there. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

It is.

SPEAKER_05 58:09

No, I think that as an 18-year-old, if I had watched this, I probably would have been the same because we weren't in the minds. Well, I can't speak for you. I'll speak for me. Um, we uh I wasn't in a mindset of um understanding how um predatory people can be and manipulative and and under you have to really, really live some life and really like study and watch people and like how they move to really understand that part of life. But face but at that time we were just face value. Yeah. Like, oh, what do you mean I touch your bum? I can touch your bum. What a quick do that. Blah blah blah blah blah blah. You know, like so you like what you mean, you know. So it's yeah, you definitely want to protect yourself and your image because that was the most important thing to us at that time, or to me at that time. So, like, oh what do you mean I do that? I ain't do that, I never do that. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 59:00

So, um And it's like prove it, prove it, prove it. Yeah, yeah, show me what you talking about, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_05 59:05

And it's like, well, okay, maybe you're talking about, but you get really close to me a lot. I'm like, what the fuck? You're like, well, I just do well, yeah, that made me uncomfortable. And you're like, oh, well, you know, you why you you take it so serious.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Now you're like, what's going on? Did you did you not do it? What are we uh what are you upset about?

SPEAKER_05 59:22

Right, what are you upset about, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:24

So now now you're manipulating the situation and now you're making person feel bad, like, oh well, maybe you didn't mean it. Maybe you know, oh, maybe just brush past me. It's like, yeah, but he only seems to brush past me. Like nobody else seemed to be getting touched, you know, whatever. So it's like that kind of conversation I don't think we were having at that time. So it just wasn't uh it just wasn't our purview. But now, living some life, you're like, oh, okay. So I absolutely thought it was him being angry of just not knowing what somebody has on you. Like that would be that would drive you too. It will 100%. You're like, damn, 100%. I I'm pretty sure I I'm pretty sure I delete my call.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

I know, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:03

She she could not do that really. It's like absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

Like, what the fuck? Like, what is it? And it's like, then you like run a risk of exposing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

I know, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

Like, dude, that's what I'm saying. Like, we've lived like long enough life to one, be in that position. Oh my god. Um, be like, and be on both sides of that, where it's like you've seen someone that's like trying to cover their ass, yeah, or being in a position of cover your ass. Trying to cover my own ass. And I saw him, and I was like, dude, Flynn is just like somebody see me. Like, what the fuck? You know, who could have been? You rattle, you go through all the different.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:35

You're like, wow, I must have nah, I just saw that shit in Flynn. I saw that shit. I was like, So, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, 100% was like he was just trying to figure out it was it's the unknown of what somebody has on you. And like, like you absolutely said, once you said it, you're like, oh, that's an easily explainable way. Like, of course, a student who might have just got in trouble might not like me. How many teachers and principals be like, eh, fuck she? Yeah, they never do anything to me, but I'm like, fuck she, you know, she she gave me a zero, blah blah blah. You're like, and now you're like of the grand scheme of things, like who the fuck cares?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:09

But at the time, it was a big deal, huge thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

So then, so he's like, So after that, um after that, he he it's almost like he has the upper hand, but like to Sis Allah was just unrelenting. That's one of the ways. We forgot to mention that in one of her couches. She never waved. Unrelenting.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:29

You know, but she never wavered.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

And it's almost like Flynn was like, he was like teetering on like, fuck, should I just confess? And then it was like even the confession, the consideration of confessing, I think it was just a reason he didn't ultimately do it was because it's like she doesn't have anything on me, man. I can beat her. Like, I can he said it to her, like, I'll I'll like I'll beat you. Like you can't there's you can't win this against me, you know. But he goes back and forth where he's like, well, just like like have you never done anything, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:02

But again, manipulation. That's all it was. That's all it was.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

She didn't fucking take the beat.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:09

I mean, she admitted, she was like, of course, of course I believe. Well, no, she did, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

And then she hit him with the um a dog that bites is a dog that bites. A dog that bites, a dog that bites.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:20

I loved it. I wrote that down. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wrote that down my notes. I was like, that is like actually a dog that bites, a dog bites. Actually, yeah, no, I'm gonna beat you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

It's like, yeah, this was like you're saying we're not the same. We're not the same. You try and be like, oh, maybe a mistake happened or something. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:34

But then I had the note here of like, and this is we might get, I mean, you know, so so is truly a sin a sin, or is there worse sins?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Is a sin a sin. Okay, I so I understand the question.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:50

Because she's saying, he's saying he did something, she's saying she also did something. She's saying, I'm better than you. Like the thing that I did is less worse than the first thing you've done.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:00

But she didn't say what her.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

We don't know what what it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:03

It might have been like she took a piece of gum, which is like obviously a piece of gum versus assaulting a child, is it's different, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

Different. So, and and she but she said that she confessed, right? And he said, I've done this thing. So we good. And she's like, it was good. He was so fucking good. It's like you confess, yeah. I confessed my God. My sins are with my confessor. My confessor, yes, yes, yes, yes. I was like, this is it, they were spitting bars at each other. And so to answer your question, like, is a sin a sin? Nah, I mean, no, well, okay. When we say sin, if we're talking like the literal, like in a biblical point of view, is a sin a sin, or versus like like a crime. A crime, right? Because a crime is not a crime, right? But most crimes are sins, I guess. You know, so but we have a legal system that tells you that a crime is not a crime, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:55

You know, you do one and you got a $50 fine, you do one and you get life. So that's a different story, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

So, but if we're trying to just leave it out of legal and just go from a moral ethical standpoint, like, is you molesting a child the same as me cheating on my husband, or like her Alicia's cheating on her husband, or adultery, yeah. Yeah, committing adultery, or is it the same as murder? Like, in that sense, which is worse, they're both very terrible. But I I think it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:27

And I I I don't think it matters. I think that's what a manipulator wants you to get caught up in that well, is it that bad? Yeah. Like, well, when he asked her that have you not committed a more he said mortal sin too. He didn't just say sin. Yeah, he just said, which by her saying yes, it lets us to believe whatever this sin is, it is a big fucking deal. It's not just like stealing gun. Maybe, yeah. You know, maybe we're like her nunnery or something. Or that was my guess.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:56

I was like, nah, she's up with she stepped with somebody or fell in love.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

A mortal sin would most likely have to at least be something like on the Ten Commandments or something, right? So, but whatever it is, she has the knowledge of what her sin is and what she's accusing him of. So if she didn't think it was on the same level, she would have said no.

unknown 1:05:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

Maybe, right? But regardless, she said yes, and but it doesn't matter. Like as a manipulator, you want you want the person that's confronting you to get caught up in that ethical moral conundrum. You're not caught up in it, you're just using it to lessen your take the attention off of you, you know. So I I don't think um it would be interesting to know what that mortal sensory committed was, but like she said, uh, a dog that bites is a dog that bites. And you know, he says to her, uh, this was right after she said that his bar was even if you can't imagine the explanation, sister, remember there are things beyond your knowledge, even if you feel certainty, it is an emotion, not a fact. And that whole circle. So during all this though, she does tell him, Well, I spoke to your old parish. And he's like, Oh, yeah, he's writing at this point. He's like, Okay, whatever. Who'd you speak to? And she's not to the old nun. A nun.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:20

No, at first, she's like, Oh, yeah, the pastor? Yeah, whatever. And he was still writing it. And then she's and then he said, and then she said, No, I spoke to a nun. He paused.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:28

He did.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:28

I was like, Oh, she got you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:29

He did. I was like, she got you.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:31

Got you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

He's like, and then so now he hides behind the rules.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:35

Yeah, you're not supposed to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

No, you're supposed to go through the this is this is irregular. This is absurd.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:40

You know the rules. You gotta talk to the pastor, not to the pastor.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

So, but do you and the pastor have some type of understanding? God damn it. The fucking that whole interaction of that I'm actually right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:50

Look at it. Okay, I see. He does have good spots. I do have good spots. He does have good spots. Okay, I'm not being dramatic. I am it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

That shit was so powerful, man. And I even got emotional. I teared up watching them like go back and forth. I don't know why. It just really spoke to me. And seeing him throw everything he had at her from a manipulation uh standpoint and her just fucking deflecting it and being like, no man, you will not deter me, you will not distract me. He even says, he says, Where's your compassion? She says, nowhere you can get out of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:21

Nowhere you can get at. That was good. That was a good lie. Nowhere you can get at it. Oh god. But you feel sorry. There's nowhere you can get at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Yeah, man. Like, dude. And then, like, and then even on her way out, she because she was she's up, she's almost out the door. She comes back and petting this fucking cat.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:41

I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

When she was petting her coat, it was weird.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:43

I thought it was the cat. I was like, what the fuck would that come from? But I realized it was the coat. I was like, why is she petting it like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:49

She was like an evil villain petting that came.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

I think she was just in this zone. And I promise you there's nothing in her script that says to do that. I think she was just in the fucking, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:59

You were like, nobody cut, not too.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

Do not interrupt her, okay?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:03

A hundred percent. I can believe that. That shit came out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

But she says to him, Well, okay, there's another question. I didn't write it down, but when he um, because he was like, I'm doing I'm good to this boy. I take, I'm good to this boy. She's like, the fuck like no, you're telling yourself that. Like this feeling, it's not virtue. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:21

Like, but the the parting feeling you get is not virtue. Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

The part in the line that she hit him with though was, I have no sympathy for you. I know you are invulnerable to true regret. And like, and then she leaves him and she said, Cut your nails right up.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:37

She did that. What was up with the nail thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

Again, is is un is improper. He's not uh he's not kept well. He's unkempt, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:45

Yeah, but I mean his nails were clean though. But they were long, they were a little bit long.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

As a man is supposed to keep the acknowledged, yeah, keep them a little long or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:53

Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, not only with him, but he then he instructed the rest of the boys to do it as well. He was like, make sure your nails are clean. And I'm like, what is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

Hey, uh it's just it's hygiene, it's just it's a hygiene thing, like cleanliness and all that stuff. I I just I guess remember cleanliness is next to God and you see all that stuff. That's I think that's all it is. Yeah, we remember, this is foreign to us because one, like Lutherans are like the hippies of like the old religion, like we're you know, so we are like it's hard for us to relate to no fucking bride to get a church. I know so, but it's hard for us to relate to like fucking old Catholicism, where it's like you're just that rigid, you know, that Catholic school stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:30

Yeah, but we just stole the songs, but otherwise. That's really it. That's really it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

That's really it. So yeah, man, like I just that shit was just powerful.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:41

Cut your nails.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

It was it was just a hell of an interaction.

The Lie That Forces An Exit

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

So um, so he he does decide ultimately to leave the parish, the church, and um there were two things that stood out for me during this moment. One, we had Donald crying, he's in shambles, um, that Father Flynn is leaving. And you know, that was that was his guy, you know. Whatever their relationship was, inappropriate or otherwise, that was a person he had his person at the school, he's gone.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:13

That was his protection.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

We also saw Jimmy smile.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:17

Jimmy smiled.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:18

So, to answer your question earlier, I think Jimmy was one of Father Flynn's victims. Absolutely, you know, so but when you asked what his attitude was, I think that's all that's No, that's the different dude.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:31

That's the blonde dude who rips his hand away in the beginning is a different dude from Jimmy the Clash Clown.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

Okay, okay, no, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. No, I know that. Oh, okay. So, yeah, so that blonde dude rips his hand away. I guess that's not Jimmy then.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:46

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:46

But that dude who put his hand away is the same dude who smiles at the end. Is that who that was? That wasn't Jimmy? That wasn't Jimmy.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:53

Jimmy has brown hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

Oh, okay. So I mixed that up then. That's my fault. Okay, okay, okay. Okay, shit. So then I don't have an answer for you then. I don't know why he had all that attitude. I mean I mean he might have still been there. He might have still been out.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:03

He was an older boy. I think that's where him and um Dotnell were like really.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

Oh, but they were hanging out and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:14

Um when she sent him back from the principal's office and um Father Flynn grabbed his arm, uh grabbed his shoulder and stopped him, and everything just kind of stopped.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:24

And then, you know, and after that he did feel a little weird. So I mean he probably still was a victim, but he wasn't the one who I don't know if he got far.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:31

Okay, so so so the dude smiling, that was the first kid that that sparked the whole thing. Okay, okay. That's my fault. My fault, folks. All right, so now we're at the the final scene of the movie. Sister James is back from wherever the fuck she was. No, sorry, she was taking care of her brother for however long, because it's definitely like months have gone by. Um, and again, another powerful scene. Um they gave at least they grace Amy Adams with the final scene of the movie and able to go alongside Meryl Streep. And to me, the biggest thing in that was Sister Jim's asked her, Did you prove it? She said, To who? Anyone but yourself.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:10

Anyone but you already sure. Like, you don't need to prove shit. Anybody else heard about it?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

Anyone but yourself. She said, No. And um, you know, she's like, So, like, so all what was all this for? Like, why did he leave? Like, why, like, you know, if it was never proven. And she said, you know, I told him that I called his old parish. I spoke to a nun, and you know, the nun told me about some wrongdoings. And she said, Oh, so you did get the proof. She said, No, I never made such a call. I lied. And she's like, You lied? Like, what like what the hell? And she says to her, in the pursuit of wrongdoing, one steps away from God.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

I said, God damn it, you stole my line. I love that line, so it's good. It's a good line.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

There's no way I couldn't say it. It's a good line, but I find my whatever. And then she says, Of course there is a price.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:02

There's a price.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

So and then she's she says, she breaks down and says she have doubts, she has such doubts. Before we talk about what we feel about Flynn, what do you think about that last line of the movie? Because I have two minds of it as well for this from 18 years ago, 17 years ago until now. But what do you think? I have doubts, I have such doubts. She's crying breaking now. What do you think? What does she have doubts about?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:26

Um, the doubts is I think, and this is this is very raw. I think the doubts come from the blind um following that nuns should have to priests and pastors because they're supposed to be mouthpiece, they're supposed to be touched by God. They're supposed to be like essentially God on earth, right? In some form, you know, not saying they are God, but speaking through pastors, yeah. Right, exactly. So um, in order to do what she had to do, she had to question essentially the mouthpiece of God right here. And I think that um is where she's like, you know, you know, she had to have some doubts. And then like, what does that do for you? Because you know that there are um men in power who this is not the first. She said she had another incident like this. That's why.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

She's alluded to that several times. Yeah, she did, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:19

Another um, I don't know, if another parish or I think it was a different church, yeah. Whatever was happening, but she said it's not her first time. This is exactly that's why she was so certain. She's like, I've seen this before.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

I've seen men like you before.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:30

I've seen men like you before, exactly. Like so it's like I don't know how you don't lose doubt. Like, because these people are supposed to be um of uh you know of this holy hell high moral standard and above yeah, and I think they even commented about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:46

They said you're supposed to be above um, you're not the same, we're not the same as everyone else. We have to be held to a higher standard.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:54

I I think that's what she was talking about. No, I don't think she doubted her decision that he did it. I think she was just doubting her belief in a system that she's dedicated her life to.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

18 year old me thought that's what it was that she was doubting her crusade against Flynn. Um so that was my takeaway of the movie then. So it was like eye-opening for me now, rewatching it, being like, oh no, what you just said is 100% what I feel. That is is her faith in the cloth and these men that she's following, and you know how they're going about commuting God's word, all that stuff. Everything you said. So that's my takeaway now. But when I was younger, it was like, oh shit. So she doesn't even know if she believes, you know, that this guy did it, or whatever. Nah, man. She the certainty that she like you don't just all of a sudden just be like, fuck.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:45

I know audience couldn't see young, but we literally just made the same face to each other, like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

We gotta get on video, man. I wanted to record this one.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:53

I thought that was alright, one, but uh we're gonna roll with it. Like, nah, she was she was a hundred percent for the time she saw that hand get snatched, and then once um Unrelenting um uh n uh sister James James came forward and said, Hey, it's also aware, she was like, got you. Yeah, yeah. I just gotta flush you out.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:11

Father Flynn. You think it's without a doubt in your mind that he had he definitely did it?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:18

Um Yes. I think that Well, without a doubt in my mind, it's rough. I'm like 70-30.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:27

Oh, really? Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:28

70-30, he did.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:30

He he did a he spun a really nice web. He did really well. He was very good with his answers, and it wasn't it wasn't until he his his only not his only, but his pause when she said she called the other group and spoke to the nun is really what like I know that really tipped his tipped his hat the other way.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:48

It did.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:48

Where it's like, oh, okay, you you're guilty of something. I mean, I don't know if you're necessarily touching everybody, but you're guilty of something. You've done something.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

Yeah. You devil's advocate could be that he's like, I just I don't want to deal with this woman no more. I don't want to be here.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:00

Oh, so that's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

He spoke to his monsenior and they said, Hey man, we got a better position for you over here anyway. And he's like, you know what, fuck it, I'm out of here. Yeah. Devil's advocate. That could be it, but I don't think that's the case. No, I don't know. I think he showed his hand. I I think he was flirting with the idea of confessing and ultimately didn't. Um, and you know, there's something else about this movie, I think it was intentional. We didn't focus a lot on the on the children and Donald in particular.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:25

Yeah, I I mean I have notes about him, but yeah, we didn't talk about it. Um I just ignored him.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

The actual we actually, I was wrong. I said the first thing, first person we met was Father Flynn. That's not true. It was the Ultra Boys. We met Donald and Jimmy first.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:41

Yeah, when they were getting into school.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:43

And Jimmy asks No, Donald asked Jimmy, do you think I've gained weight?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:50

That question in my head in my mind is so fucking disgusting.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:55

Oh, yeah. I'm like, what 12 is really concerned about it, unless a man or an adult has told you that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:00

I think he told him that in one of their fucking inappropriate, you know, their molestation sessions, or whatever the hell you want to call it. Yeah, yeah. I think that's what happened, and that's why he asked his friend that. So I I and I think we couldn't focus on it. If we focus on the kids more, Donald specifically, it would be even more convincing that oh he absolutely did it. So I think the movie, and then it also goes to the point of what the mother was saying, like, because no one talked to this kid really to be like, Are you okay? Like, what's going on? No one spoke to him. They spoke around him, above him, don't make any decisions for him. No one went to him to see how he's actually doing. So I think in the little scenes that we got, just yeah, a lot of quiet scenes, you saw him like standing off and and and looking I don't know, just sad or whatever. I'm I'm I'm positive Father Flynn was very inappropriate with him and several other boys in our school. He was he had to go, he had to go. 100%.

Ratings Breakdown And Final Scores

SPEAKER_00 1:19:00

Alright, let us rate this thing. For any newcomers, why is there always a cat here? I don't understand. Get that cat out of here. For any newcomers. Newcomers, we rate our movies based on five categories. For any newcomers, we rate our movies based on five categories plot writing, acting and casting, production, cinematography, music and sound, and cultural impact. Everything is rated on a scale of one to ten. Jill, what do you have for plot and writing?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:38

Alright. So the writing. I think this is my own personal annoyance of not having a final answer. So I don't want to take away too much from it. Um, but I am. So I'm gonna give it a six.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:56

Oh, okay. I gave it a nine. Okay. Um, and so that six is larger because you didn't like how it ended. The not the definite the non-definitive nature.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:05

Yeah, tell me the answer. Tell me the answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:08

What happened to critical thinking, man? Alright, fine, seven. No, no, you don't have to change.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:13

Yeah, okay, nine, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:15

I have you down for a six. Acting and casting, what you at?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:19

That's a solid nine. Nine.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:22

I have a ten for that.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:23

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:24

Production, cinematography, and visuals.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:27

I mean, there wasn't a lot happening. I mean, like you said, there's a few set pieces just bouncing between the church, the principal's office, the the the um classroom, and then outside in the snow. So, but I mean, what was there was nicely shot. Um, it I it made me feel like I was in the 1960s in an older Boston during Boston, right? So New York.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:49

It was in the Bronx. Oh, New York, I'm sorry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:51

Who was the hell? What was that accent then?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:53

Whose accent? Oh, um, Flynn sometimes?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:57

Between Flynn and freaking um alopecia.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:03

You know that's not right. You know that's not right. Jesus. Umsius? Yeah, it was given. I didn't understand why you said Boston, because it was given like Irish-ish kind of sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:13

I mean, um there's a large uh community of Irish people in New York, but I thought we were in Boston.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:18

Catholic people, yeah. But no, it was in the Bronx, New York.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:20

That's fair. Anyway, um, so I give it a uh eight. Oh, okay. Good kill. I give it a seven. Put it back down to a seven.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:33

I also have a seven. Thank you. You're about to be raised it because I was like, oh, you score higher than me in that one. Music and sound. What do you have there?

SPEAKER_05 1:21:42

It was just there was one part where the music helped drive the emotions of the scene for me. Other than that, I didn't really get much, so I just have it at four.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:52

Four? Um, I thought so I have a seven for the music. Um I thought that it I guess I felt like it drove it more. Um just a different change in settings. They use it like transitionally at times. Um given that like you're at mass, you're in in in a church feeling. I was singing along with some of the hymns and whatnot, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:16

So I did like when the church choir was like doing stuff. Yeah. Angelic voices of children, and that was kind of like a theme in between. Five. I'll give it a five.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:24

Okay. And then cultural impact.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:27

Yeah, so I have never heard of this. Um, that's not here speaking people speaking about. Um they it was a nice story. It maybe it'll be more impactful if it was possibly true, or they were like shedding light on something, or yeah, it just sounds like they made it. I mean, obviously, we know about the the Catholic Church and their whole debacle for the longest while there's some elements of trueness, but they had a real person, but it wasn't her story. Yeah, and I'm I'm sure she had stories, so I'm not sure why they didn't pick on a real story for her. Um, so yeah, not nothing excellent for me. So a four.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:08

A four? Um match your four because of the I didn't think I count for the Oscar nominations that the movie received.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:15

Oscar is why I give it four, even though they didn't win. So I know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

But being nominated is a big deal.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:21

So it's crazy to have two different actresses from the same movie. I know um supporting actresses.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so I'll go ahead and match your four. But I agree. I don't I don't know how many people have seen it. I don't know. I've never had a conversation with anyone about this movie outside of you at this point. Um so that's why I couldn't really score that too high. Uh, overall scores, you have this wow, this is the widest gap I think we've had. You have a 6.2, and I have a 7.4. I know it's over a full point.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

Ding, ding, ding, ding,

Closing Thoughts And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_00 1:23:56

ding. Well, that will do it for our real talk and banter on doubt. To connect with us, to give us some feedback, or just say hello, email us at real talkbanter at gmail.com. That's R-E-E-L Talkbanter at gmail.com. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:17

There was a cat in there. You saw the cat, right? The cat caught the mouse. It was symbolic. She was the cat, he was the mouse. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:33

Fine. I'll allow it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:37

Damn.